What's not acceptable for OW training?

[mobster75]

If you are trained to drive only automatic cars, and went somewhere where only stickshifts were allowed. Would you be at disadvantage?

Actually, I remember back when at least here in MA, you either had a regular "full" driver's license (i.e. manual transmission) or you had an "automatic license" which means you had a special restriction on your license to only drive automatics.. Granted I was too young back then to drive, but I do remember an aunt who had to re-learn to drive in order to pass the "full" exam.

And anywhere but the US, yes, you are in for a problem if you try to rent a car and can't drive a stick shift... Either you will pay an arm and a leg for an automatic (which are generally in short supply elsewhere) or you won't be driving.

 

[String]

We still have toy licence (automatic) or full.

A full holder can drive either - an automatic can only drive an automatic (if they can find one to rent or buy anywhere)

 

[GSDMan]

With what I believe to be your intent, that students should demonstrate certain skills, I agree. The mask clear is absolutely necessary. With the purge valve mask just cover the valve and clear as usual. Not a big deal, really. The doff and don is required, but given how common weight integrated BCs are becoming, I'm not sure it will be much longer. Anyway, use an integrated BC if you want, just transfer some weight to a weight belt and demonstrate doffing and donning. Again, not the end of the world. I did my confined water dives in what you would consider a "traditional" BC (power inflator over the left shoulder, etc). Between then and my open water dives I purchased a Mares BC (weight integrated, Air Trim aka. elevator buttons). I see no difference in the power inflate/deflate functions other than you have to hold the inflator hose up to release air. The manual inflate, on the other hand, is a real pain with the Mares compared to the "traditional" BC. Regardless, I think it's far more important to train in what you'll dive than to demonstrate skills in equipment you'll likely never use again.

Jim

 

[GSDMan]

fisherdvm, in the Mask- Purge or No Purge? thread you said

The more gadgetry you introduce at an OW class - the more incompetent the certified diver will be - I mean, weight integrated BC's, purge masks, up-down buttons, one way BC inflate hose.

As I said, my OW dives were in a weight integrated BC, I have a purge mask but generally don't use it, my BC has your "up-down" buttons and a one way BC inflate hose. Are you seriously calling me incompetent?

Jim

 

[reel-wild]

all i got to say is as time goes on and new technology, things will become easyer for the new century diver. you know we live in a dont inconvenience me society, so just let me dive from my recliner.

 

[fisherdvm]

fisherdvm, in the Mask- Purge or No Purge? thread you said

As I said, my OW dives were in a weight integrated BC, I have a purge mask but generally don't use it, my BC has your "up-down" buttons and a one way BC inflate hose. Are you seriously calling me incompetent?

Jim

Only when you suddenly have to switch to new gears on short notice. I think the anology would be diving with a drysuit without having a session with it. The technology is not difficult. Diving is alot of task loading for an individual, and it would not take more than 1 or 2 dives to be accustomed to new features. Unfortunately when needed most in an emergency - the task loading can lead to panic. The main task that can save you if you were out of air is manual inflate of a BC. If you are not used to manually depressing the inflator hose and releasing it after you exhale - it might be difficult if you never trained with it at the surface.

The skill is simple, kick, heads out of water, press deflate button, blow, sink below the surface, release deflate button, kick till you are out of the water again, and repeat. With your BC's hose, it is simply, kick, inhale, exhale, then kick again. The only missing piece is the synchronization of the push and release of the deflate button and your breathing. That is the only key skill you miss in the use of a regular BC.

I would encourage you to borrow a standard BC and dive it at least once or twice, so when you do need to use one, it wouldn't be a new feature. The learning comes from both sides - folks who take rescue classes, DM, instructors, etc. also have to learn the features on your BC - so we know how to inflate it in case you can't on your own.

To be honest with you, if you dove with a buddy, and didn't show him your hidden inflate hose - he'd be hard pressed to find it if you were unconscious or panicking at the surface. In the same way, if I dove with your BC, it will take at least three or four dives to overcome my instinct to grab for the inflator hose. And if you advanced to rescue class, familiarity with other BC's is necessary to perform surface inflation of another's BC. I would find it easier to deal with a panicking diver with a long inflator hose than one with a hidden straw inflate hose. At least I can secure their tank with one hand and reach for the hose to inflate from the safety of my position.

I am weary of new gadgetry, and my gut feeling on this "hidden inflator hose" is failure will occur, injury or death will occur, and it will be off the market in a short time. But I am a pessimist.

 

[RonFrank]

I am weary of new gadgetry, and my gut feeling on this "hidden inflator hose" is failure will occur, injury or death will occur, and it will be off the market in a short time. But I am a pessimist.

For a Dork Diver, doth protest too much!

Push button BC's COULD become the norm. I kinda doubt it as I don't feel the need, but say it did. Now what?

The bottom line is that this technology is just not all that difficult to understand, or use. If this design does not catch on, then sure, it goes away. But until that happens, one may have to learn to dive and instruct with this gear.

People need to learn to accept, and embrace new technology, and ways of doing things. I've met divers using this gear, and they love it. As long as it is well designed, and safe to use, more power to them. Instructors are certainly welcome to let students know of their opinion on this type of gear. However I would not say that gives one the authority to outlaw new types of equipment.

Wait until the LDS owner get's behind something you hate!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Actually, I remember back when at least here in MA, you either had a regular "full" driver's license (i.e. manual transmission) or you had an "automatic license" which means you had a special restriction on your license to only drive automatics.. Granted I was too young back then to drive, but I do remember an aunt who had to re-learn to drive in order to pass the "full" exam.

And anywhere but the US, yes, you are in for a problem if you try to rent a car and can't drive a stick shift... Either you will pay an arm and a leg for an automatic (which are generally in short supply elsewhere) or you won't be driving.

Which one did Teddy K. have? Full, Auto, or Splash?:11::no

 

[spectrum]

In my opinion, a student completing OW training should NOT have the following gears:

1. Purge valve mask.
2. Weight integrated BC (at least until you've completed the donning/removal exercise; at least not using that feature until you've completed the drills).
3. Up/down push button BC.
4. One way inflator hose that comes with the up/down push button BC.

I believe that a rescue student should be exposed to all types of BC, releases, and weight integration. But for the basic OW student, one should be accomplished at all the skills required using a standard BC, with standard inflator hose, and weight belt. Once they've mastered that, then they can dive any gears they chose.

This has nothing to do with AOW. The intent is to become a better diver, not to dictate a configuration. Some will contend that these items can make diving more challenging despite purported benefits. If they were that unconventional or unsafe then you would be banned all together from dive instruction.

Are you sarrying at I would not be able to use a double hose regulator since it may not be understood by my buddy? I guess I was lucky to survive ice diving certification using it! If you dive such an oddity a pre-dive briefing is in order.

BTW, The usage of the word gear such as for diving equipment refers to plurality of items, dive gear, no s.

Pete

 

[tedtim]

....Only when you suddenly have to switch to new gears on short notice. I think the anology would be diving with a drysuit without having a session with it. The technology is not difficult. Diving is alot of task loading for an individual, and it would not take more than 1 or 2 dives to be accustomed to new features. Unfortunately when needed most in an emergency - the task loading can lead to panic.

I recall the first time I took training in a full motion flight simulator. We were sent to a training facility in Dallas. The flight simulator was not configured exactly the same as our helicopter. Close enough that the flight model was good for training. Of the group I went with none of us had any time in a full motion flight simulator. We were a bit concerned.

At the first session the instructor saw our concern; it was something he had seen in many other groups. He asked how many of us had been to Dallas before - no hands raised. He asked us how many own the same vehicle as we rented - again no hands raised. He then asked if we had any real problems getting from the airport to the hotel and then to the training facility. No problems were indicated.

This analogy is akin to using new dive gear. Quite honestly, if you train in a weight integrated BC and for some odd reason have to switch to using a weight belt, it is not a significant problem. A thinking diver will take the time to go through the differences in gear and work out any perceived problems.

....But I am a pessimist.

You are training a thinking diver, correct? Why is it that you think you have to train someone in a configuration that you dictate just in case they have to switch to that different gear on short notice? If you train them using, for example, a weight belt and they don't have to use one for a couple of years because they bought a weight integrated system, I suggest that the time between the initial, limited, training and using that type of equipment will result in a loss of learned skills. Or is it that you are more concerned with getting sued if someone loses their weight belt and has an uncontrolled ascent?