Scientists say whales were bent!!

[JimC]

No diferent than exhaling out your reg and inhaling again. Ofcourse, now you have full lungs at 4ATA to deal with, longer bottom times for N2 build up and all of the other issues of scuba.

Pipin, from what I heard, uses spare air's when he is training as a bailout in just such a manner.

saying once bubbled...

Out of curiosity: are there phsyiological dangers for someone to freedive to 100 feet, exhale, and then take a breath from a reg sitting there waiting for them? That is, is there a risk in changing lung volume that quickly?

 

[zboss]

jiveturkey once bubbled...
The expanding gas is only going to get as large as it was at the surface. It shouldn't matter how deep you go.

This is only true in a closed environment... if energy of any type is added to the equation (like high energy sound waves) this excites the particles into a higher energy state. Eventually this higher energy state will cause heat and expansion.

If the whales were ascending while simultaneously being exposed to high energy waves - it's possible this caused the bubbles.

On the other hand... the US has developed a high energy microwave weapon, similar to a microwave in your kitchen but much higher energy output. These devices have caused similar symptoms in test subjects - what interesting about these weapons is that individual organs respond to different wavelengths - thus you can fry a person's liver, lungs, brain, etc...

It's possible the Navy has been equiping boats with these devices as a way to kill the crew members of other subs without using a torpedo.

 

[BigJetDriver]

Let me just say, before anyone reacts to my next comment, that I support measures to protect whales. I support several organiztions that do active work to protect marine mammals.

There are several things about the reported story that bother me, however, and the first is the giant "leap of conclusion" offered in the story by "scientists" who, without offering any evidence, state that the sonar "scared the whales" into surfacing too fast, thus they got bent. Since the whales are free-diving, and have evolutionary mechanisms to protect them, this seems unlikely.

The second supposition is rather specious as well. That is, that the sonar directly caused the bubbles, much as an ultra-sonic cleaner causes cavitation bubbles. Given the right set of circumstances, this might be remotely possible, but the facts do not seem to fit that conclusion. Especially when the blythe assertion is made: "Low-frequency sonar that has been tested by the U.S. Navy generates sound as high as 160 decibels — loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage in humans — as far away as 160 kilometres." This is simply NOT a true statement. If nothing else, the "Inverse Square Rule" as applied to energy propagation would make the above statement invalid.

Again, much needs to be done to protect marine mammals, but stories like this do not help the cause of those of us who want to protect them.:book2:

 

[adder70]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...
Especially when the blythe assertion is made: "Low-frequency sonar that has been tested by the U.S. Navy generates sound as high as 160 decibels — loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage in humans — as far away as 160 kilometres." This is simply NOT a true statement. If nothing else, the "Inverse Square Rule" as applied to energy propagation would make the above statement invalid.

I believe the "blythe assertion" is the the sound pressure level in dB, is 160 dB at 160 km away. That would mean that the SPL at close range is much higher and would be catastrophic to a human. That isn't all that high, as I know a show vehicle was asked to lower its stereo during a crank it up competition because it was affecting readings elsewhere (100 yds away). They then tested the show vehicle and it registered at the sensor's limit of 159 dB, meaning it was 159dB at 1ft (or 1m), and this was only a van. Remember, SPL ratings, ie for a speaker, are defined based on a reference distance.

 

[BigJetDriver]

adder70 once bubbled...


I believe the "blythe assertion" is the the sound pressure level in dB, is 160 dB at 160 km away.

Unless you have actual test results to show, your statement is, unfortunately, just an unsupported assumption.

 

[Cudabait]

The fat lady has not even begun to sign on this one. Look what a microwave will do to a cup of water.

 

[Goeduck]

Please forgive me if this is wrong, but don't the "experts" complain about whale deaths after, or during, a "naval exercise"?

Now, during these naval exercises, what is the purpose of a submarine? Isn't the idea of a submarine supposed to be stealth? The fact that no-one knows where they are, exactly? Why would a submarine reveal it's presence by using its sonar? I believe that most submariners would agree with me that giving away their presence would practically be certain death in war time, or just discovery, during naval exercises. This notion of using sonar to find another submarine was used in movies about submarines. Can you imagine how boring those submarine war movies would be if all they could show was a sonar operator sitting before his computer console? Instead, it is much more exciting to hear the captain say, "Lash him" and then hear the loud "PING" that comes from the sonar, then hear the sonar operator saying "Got him!! 5000 yards at bearing 270 degrees"

I believe today, most, if not all submarines use what is called "passive sonar". In other words, they are doing nothing but listening to the sounds that are generated underwater by not only underwater creatures, but also man-made sounds, like another submarine or surface vessel and using computers to seperate and identify those sounds.

Goeduck

Disclaimer-- I never served in the military, but I do read alot, and techno-thrillers are my favorite.

 

[jiveturkey]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...


There are several things about the reported story that bother me, however, and the first is the giant "leap of conclusion" offered in the story by "scientists" who, without offering any evidence, state that the sonar "scared the whales" into surfacing too fast, thus they got bent. Since the whales are free-diving, and have evolutionary mechanisms to protect them, this seems unlikely.

I guess at this point they don't really know what's going on. They have to come up with something that's probable. Do you have any other ideas as to how this would happen?

As you said, because of evolutionary mechanisms, this isn't a natural occurance for whales (groups of whales at that). These bubbles in their systems aren't normal either or whales would have been gone long ago. There has to be something unnatural happening regardless of whether or not it's sonar "scaring" them to the surface.

 

[Diver0001]

The submarine is the needle in the haystack. The sonar isn't ON the submarine as I understand it. The sonar is probably ship mounted (or an array of ship mounted units) and is looking for a hiding sub. This new type of Sonar has the advantage that it works at very long distances. The disadvantage (regardless of whether or not the facts in this, rather speculative, article are correct) is that the low frequency sonar hurts whales and dolphins. And that's what this article was about. It's not so much *what* happened to these particular whales that's interesting, but *how*. To me this LFS is starting to look very much like yet another needless form of environmental damage caused by humans.

R..

Goeduck once bubbled...
Please forgive me if this is wrong, but don't the "experts" complain about whale deaths after, or during, a "naval exercise"?

Now, during these naval exercises, what is the purpose of a submarine? Isn't the idea of a submarine supposed to be stealth? The fact that no-one knows where they are, exactly? Why would a submarine reveal it's presence by using its sonar? I believe that most submariners would agree with me that giving away their presence would practically be certain death in war time, or just discovery, during naval exercises. This notion of using sonar to find another submarine was used in movies about submarines. Can you imagine how boring those submarine war movies would be if all they could show was a sonar operator sitting before his computer console? Instead, it is much more exciting to hear the captain say, "Lash him" and then hear the loud "PING" that comes from the sonar, then hear the sonar operator saying "Got him!! 5000 yards at bearing 270 degrees"

I believe today, most, if not all submarines use what is called "passive sonar". In other words, they are doing nothing but listening to the sounds that are generated underwater by not only underwater creatures, but also man-made sounds, like another submarine or surface vessel and using computers to seperate and identify those sounds.

Goeduck

Disclaimer-- I never served in the military, but I do read alot, and techno-thrillers are my favorite.

 

[Knavey]

If someone goes active with an enemy submarine in the area, they might as well make their vessel a new wreck dive for tech divers.

I can't count the number of times my carrier was sunk during workup exercises by "enemy" submarines. Think one time we were sunk 5 times in one day...and we were supposed to be the most protected asset in the fleet.

All you submariners chime in...just how many times did YOU search with active sonar?

The benefit of this type of sonar is that you CAN have an active system that detects the enemy LONG before he can get attack you. Thats the beauty of it...and the reason you win in a war. Blow the crap out of them, before they do it to you.

This is the same old "theory" crap that has been going around since the stone age...

Throsh: "See little rock. Fits on end of stick. Stick animals with it and get food"

Natureluver: "Throsh bad. Kill all animals with rock stick."

Throsh: "You so unoriginal...its not rockstick...it called spear!"

Natureluver: "Spear? Spear bad...you kill all animals and none left!"

Throsh begins to think he should stick Natureluver instead of a deer with spear. About that time the sabertooth tiger happens along.

Who do you think lives to see the next meal? Will Natureluver survive the onslaught of a hungry tiger? Will the sabertooth tiger make a meal out of our outspoken activist AND our spear equipped inventor? Or will the saber tooth tiger AND Throsh go their separate ways...the saber tooth tiger with a full belly and Throsh with his spear to find something else to eat since cannibalism isn't his thing? Or will Throsh chase the tiger away, saving poor activist so that he can plant more trees?

We report...you decide.