S Drill Etiquette

[InTheDrink]

More than witnessed ... he was involved in the rescue attempt. But that octo was attached in a way that no agency would approve of (boltsnapped to a D-ring). Complicate that with a dark environment, what was almost certainly a total siltout once the OOG took place, and a victim who had a history of being excitable ... it's perhaps not a good example of the advantages/disadvantages of one reg configuration over another ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm not sure that it's not a great example - it's another example of why this configuration can go wrong. I don't think the person that overly-secured their backup (boltsnapped in the instance we're talking about) is necessarily alone. I've seen other do similar.

To take another, sadly common, example - how many times have you seen divers with their Octo trailing behind them? Again, this could easily lead to panic in an OOG situation for either donor or receiver.

Of course if someone decides to make a noose of their long hose then you'll get problems there too, sure. Swings and roundabouts. But on balance I prefer necklaced backup/long hose.

Thanks,
John

 

[boulderjohn]

Bringing the buddy-breathing controversy into it is a non-sequitur ... if the OOA person doesn't know it, and the two of you need to do it, you're kinda screwed either way ... hose length is gonna be the least of your worries at that point.

If you only have one second stage for two divers, you have the rest of your life to learn how to buddy breathe in an OOG situation.

Given that choice, some people might elect to do a CESA.

 

[DCBC]

Your "old school" ways are exactly that in many domains of diving today.

Perhaps you're right, but having been in OOG situations as a donor I don't necessarily want to discard what has worked in the past for someone elses bright idea to change the procedure. If the secondary fails, I will be the donor and not the receiver with my own regulator (go figure).

Basically every technical diving agency has decided that getting an OOG diver a known working regulator is a priority over the mild inconvenience of being without one for a couple of seconds. If the procedure can work in the most stressful and urgent situations (deep, back of a cave, etc), then it's going to work just fine on an 80' reef with a little practice.

I would remind you that in the basic scuba discussion area, no one really cares what the technical agencies recommend or don't. As a cave and deep diver myself, I don't think much of giving away my primary in this scenario. I much rather resort to my redundant regulator than be tethered to another diver.

 

[DCBC]

Wayne, you're making some assumptions yourself ... like that you won't know the person you're sharing air with. If that's the case, you will be dealing with an unknown quantity ... and taking risks you haven't the knowledge to evaluate beforehand ... no matter what type of reg setup you're using.

That's the point, you don't know. That's why I will retain the primary and give the secondary (with a 5' hose). If the secondary fails the guy will either do a CESA or will buddy breathe with me retaining control of the 2nd stage. I don't have a problem with the short hose length, I dove for 20 years before the longer hoses were available.

We all have to use what we're comfortable with ... but I don't think that the circumstances you've described provide any advantage to handing off an octopus vs the breathing reg. You're going to be taking risks either way ... the only thing that matters is how well you're prepared to deal with them.

Yes, but I am not going to relinquish control of my primary regulator as a matter of course, when I have a secondary.

Bringing the buddy-breathing controversy into it is a non-sequitur ... if the OOA person doesn't know it, and the two of you need to do it, you're kinda screwed either way ...

The fact that the OOG victim may not know how to buddy breathe strengthens my position (from my perspective). The other diver doesn't care which second stage he receives; he just wants air. If it works, great no problems. If it doesn't, he will either buddy breathe or do a CESA. I'm in control of my own regulator.

I think it would be foolish to give away a functioning and clear primary, find the secondary doesn't work and face doing a CESA with someone who doesn't know how to buddy breathe and whom I'm tethered to. Not good. If I'm the rescuer, I will remain the rescuer.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

...I think it would be foolish to give away a functioning and clear primary, find the secondary doesn't work and face doing a CESA with someone who doesn't know how to buddy breathe and whom I'm tethered to. Not good. If I'm the rescuer, I will remain the rescuer.

I leave for a day, and the "donkey" comedy thread turns into a pretty serious discussion about donating primary versus secondary...

DCBC's point seems to revolve around not surrendering a known-working reg if you are the rescuer; and he makes a good point why.

The DIR/GUE/tech folks point is that at the moment of OOA, the OOA diver is the diver who most needs a known-working reg, and that the rescuer is better able to momentarily deal with a non-working backup. Also a very good point.

In either case: If the backup/octo fails, there is a problem.

In a "team" setting (DIR/GUE/tech folks), it seems that you are far more likely to know or at least have an idea about the abilities, training, skill level, equipment configuration, etc., of the OOA diver; he is less likely to have been an "instabuddy". In a "team" setting, I wonder if this changes the definition from a true "rescue" to one of a "timely assist" between peers...

In a "rec" setting however, you may not know who you've been teamed with. You may need to adopt the mindset of rescuer / victim rather than assisting a teammate... and DCBC's point about the rescuer not becoming a victim makes sense.

This discussion interests me because I was absent from diving for many years.... when I stopped diving, none of us were using "octos", we all learned to buddy breath.

When I returned 3 years ago, I found octos in universal use (and BC's!!), and buddy breathing no longer taught in basic OW. So I adopted a "conventional" rec regulator setup, with short primary and long octo hoses.

But in the past couple years, I switched over to a long-hose primary, short-hose bungied backup configuration, because I'm still more comfortable donating the regulator in my mouth.... I can dontate the one I'm breathing from faster, and it is what I do reflexively anyway.

Best wishes.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm not sure that it's not a great example - it's another example of why this configuration can go wrong. I don't think the person that overly-secured their backup (boltsnapped in the instance we're talking about) is necessarily alone. I've seen other do similar.

To take another, sadly common, example - how many times have you seen divers with their Octo trailing behind them? Again, this could easily lead to panic in an OOG situation for either donor or receiver.

Of course if someone decides to make a noose of their long hose then you'll get problems there too, sure. Swings and roundabouts. But on balance I prefer necklaced backup/long hose.

Thanks,
John

So do I ... but any piece of equipment out there can be used incorrectly. In order to compare the advantages/disadvantages of different configurations in any meaningful way, one must compare them as they were intended to be used. Not a single agency I know of would teach someone to secure their octopus with a boltsnap ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Given that choice, some people might elect to do a CESA.

That is true ... but having been in a position once where I had to forcibly remove my primary reg (on a 7-foot hose) from someone who was endangering me, I can assure you it's not as hard as some would make it out to be ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

In either case: If the backup/octo fails, there is a problem.

Thanks for the excellent summary. I agree that if the back-up fails that there is a problem. You have a choice whether you want to be the one with the functioning regulator, or if you want someone else to have it.

Some of the things I've learned about OOG situations are:

1. You don't always give air to people you know.
2. Not every diver knows how to buddy breathe or is willing to (narcosis).
3. If the other diver doesn't want to move (passive panic or narcosis), he may not move as easily as you would like him to.
4. I don't want to have to do a CESA with a tethered diver (2nd stage).
5. I believe the "rescuer" should have the upper hand.

I've been in a situation like this in the past where 1,2,3 and 4 were present. Unfortunately, I was the rescuer but allowed myself to lose control of the situation due to a second person OOG.

OOG is an emergency situation at the best of times. Having a well-rehearsed plan of action that puts you at reduced risk is how I've done things since this event (25 years ago) and is the way it will remain for me. If I have an experience and miss its meaning, I'm an idiot; I know that's not the case (despite not being the brightest bulb in the package).

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Thanks DCBC, Bob, John, and all.

You see, as amazing as it sounds, I've never been OOA, nor have any of my buddies, nor anyone in the water around us.... I've dealt with narced divers at depth, surface emergencies, but never an OOA.

So the more I can hear from those who have had to deal with this type of emergency, the better.

Best wishes.

 

[DivingFirefighter]

Cold sores, TB, rotting teeth, bleeding gums, blood, mucus, spit, poor hygiene, growth from who knows what in other peoples dirty regs.


N

Probably worst thing you could get is TB and its usually pretty obvious that someone has TB. My thought is, considering the potential for bad things to happen in bad situations I'll do it with out a second thought, provided my buddy looks healthy and coughing or showing any other signs of illness. Yes I know lots of diseases are contagious before showing symptoms. But in reality the risks are low.

As far as contaminates in the water... how much water are you really ingesting? And if you are really concerned about the water quality then why are you diving in it?