Open Water with Referrals, SSI + PADI?

[tstormdiver]

The issue is that the basic skills are the same between agencies. The standards for the skills are the same. So if you see performance of the beyond your agenciy's standards you would not pass the student? That just doesn't make sense. If the student is sub par,.. sure I can understand it. If the student is properly trained per SSI's standards it should certainly equal PADI's standards at a minimum. RSTC demands it. As I said in a post above,.. the biggest difference I have seen is the donation of a reg to an OOA diver. In which case niether method is right nor wrong, especially depending on equipment configuration.

Not trying to fight, but trying to get you to understand, that the standards for the basic skills aren't as far apart as you seem to think.

 

[WheelsUSN]

The issue is that the basic skills are the same between agencies. The standards for the skills are the same. So if you see performance of the beyond your agenciy's standards you would not pass the student? That just doesn't make sense. If the student is sub par,.. sure I can understand it. If the student is properly trained per SSI's standards it should certainly equal PADI's standards at a minimum. RSTC demands it. As I said in a post above,.. the biggest difference I have seen is the donation of a reg to an OOA diver. In which case niether method is right nor wrong, especially depending on equipment configuration.

Not trying to fight, but trying to get you to understand, that the standards for the basic skills aren't as far apart as you seem to think.

OK, I see your point.

Now here is my point. Prior to taking any OW student to OW I am going to assess their skills in confined water and assess their knowledge level, I'm not going to just say "get on the boat and let's go" because they have a piece of paper from an instructor that I don't know. That is regardless of what agency they started their training with. If another instructor referred a student to you would you assess their knowledge and skills prior to taking them to open water? So once I do that and then take them on the OW dives which they do well on, meeting or exceeding all of my agencies standards, why would I sign a referral form for them to take back to another shop instead of certifying them with my agency?

I can do an online certification for them and they will immediately show up on PADI's database as a certified diver. How does it benefit the student to have to take the paperwork back to someone else and wait for the certification to be processed? My first four certs were from NAUI, NAUI, PADI, and SSI. It never mattered to me which agency issued my card, only that I received it as soon as possible after meeting the requirements.

 

[gryffin]

Doing checkout dives someplace warm instead of freezing cold is a great idea. Doing them while on a cruise is a bad idea. Doing them at two different shops, while on a cruise, is a horrible idea. Please don't do it.

I'm just curious why it is a bad idea to do them on a cruise or between two different shops. If you have good instructors, why would it matter? I'm not trying to be difficult, I've never dived before, so I really don't know the answer to this.

 

[Jill from Phoenix]

You need to contact the shops in the Caribbean and see which would be willing to except the training.

I cannot see any operations turning down business, but they may want some extras outside of the 2-day open water dives. They may want a record of all your training signed by the instructor, and a medical history signed by a physician. Personally, I also like to checkout referrals with a quick confined water dive prior to open water.

Have you thought about bringing a scuba instructor with you? If it fits in your budget, it may be a great idea.

On a side note: PADI operations many times do participate in the referral programs of other agencies, but not in the way it was designed. The agency that began the training is supposed to issue the card taking the word of the instructor that conducted the final dives. This was so that the original agency didn't loose business that went to the Caribbean for checkout dives. In PADI, the instructor that does the last certification dive issues the certification. So in essence, the SSI instructor did all the work and PADI gets the credit, when it was not a PADI trained diver. Of course, this is really more of a business issue than the training one. None to worry.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

I would add that the logistics of doing your 4 open water certifications dives at 2 different locations and with 2 different dive shops will add to the complications and stress of the certification process. . That will no doubt increaase your costs, AND.. you need to be sure your instructor on the first 2 dives signs off all paperwork and SENDS IT ON YOUR WAY WITH YOU. INSIST ON THAT. Only the final certifying instructor should be sending in to the certifying agency. I also think that trying to do this while on a cruise and a slave to shore excursion shuttles may be an additional stress factor. I hope all works out, but if it doesn't then some alternate time will present itself. Have a great trip.
DivemasterDennis

 

[boulderjohn]

OK, let's go right to the PADI Pro web site for the official position. Here are the key excerpts:

PADI is not a proponent of “universal” or “global” referrals for several reasons. Some of these are described in detail below. Generally, our legal advice has been that it will be difficult to defend, especially because the certifying instructor has not seen the student in the open water, and it can result (and has resulted) in customer service problems for the diver. However, if you choose to participate in this referral system, please make an informed choice.

What is PADI’s position on the Universal or Global referral approach, and why?

PADI’s position on the Universal Referral program (and similar approaches) as regards divers receiving PADI credentials through such a process has also remained unchanged since the program was first presented to the RSTC in 1995. This position is based upon recommendations from legal counsel regarding the difficulty (perhaps impossibility) of defending a lawsuit resulting from a “universal” style referral process. The questions of how an instructor from one agency can be familiar enough with the standards and training requirements of a different agency to defend his actions; of how the referring (certifying) instructor can ascertain that the person conducting the open water dives was even a current, qualified instructor at the time the open water training occurred; of how the certifying organization can maintain any quality control whatsoever on the instructor conducting the open water training or have any reasonable way to know that its required open water skills were performed correctly by the student it will certify; etc.

May I complete open water dives via the “universal” or “global” referral process and send the diver back to the originating instructor for certification?

Choosing to conduct a non-PADI program is completely up to you. These types of referrals are not within the scope of PADI standards and programs. Therefore, whether or not you accept them is your business choice. PADI recommends that you fully inform yourself before making such a decision by thoroughly researching the issue.​

Summary: As several have stated, PADI discourages the use of the Universal Referral program, but it does not forbid it. Unlike what others have said, PADI centers are not required to give PADI certification after the OW dives. If I were a PADI instructor in a resort area receiving students from other agencies, I would probably opt to participate. As far as the differences between SSI and PADI at that level of instruction, the two are almost identical.

 

[tstormdiver]

As far as the differences between SSI and PADI at that level of instruction, the two are almost identical.

Thank you....

 

[gryffin]

Thanks for the input so far.

We haven't yet decided what we will do, but I have found instructors/shops on 3 of the islands we will be visiting that are willing to do universal referrals or even SSI referrals (even though the shops aren't listed as SSI shops on SSI's website) and who will do just 2 out of the 4 OW dives.

Regardless of whether we do DSD or get certified, I am not planning to use a ship-sponsored excursion- too many people, not enough attention. I am sticking with dive shops who are well thought of and who assign only a small number of students per instructor. All the shops I talked to will pick us up and return us to the cruise ship pier.

 

[Damselfish]

I agree that trying to do your OW dives at 2 different places on a cruise is not the greatest idea for so many reasons, even without possible issues introduced by involving 2 agencies. I really think you're better off with the continuity of finishing up with one shop and one instructor, but aside from that your plans could be torpedoed just by being too congested to dive one of the days you planned, or by one of the places suddenly not having an instructor available at the time you need, or whatever - this stuff happens. Note the varied comments above on "if" and "how" and "can you" start with SSI and finish with a PADI shop - it's just this uncertainty and differences of interpretation and policies by different people and places that can make it a headache. Checking ahead is no guarantee of a smooth ride, as you can get "no problem" types answers from places in the Caribbean when you are a potential customer but find it's slightly more of problem once you're actually there. If you really want to try to complete the certification on a cruise through PADI shops, it might be well worth some extra driving from home to start it with a PADI shop and eliminate one possible problem.

(A friend of mine did SSI class and pool at home, then went on a trip someplace where her only option was PADI shops. She did in the end get her SSI certification, but it was a big hassle even after she had contacted the shop in advance to make sure things would work. In hindsight, she would have been better off completing a PADI certification there, though it would have involved more time - fine since she was staying there, not so fine if working within the constraints of a cruise.)

Another thing, if you don't intend to dive at home, when will be your next opportunity to go on a trip and dive? If it's reasonably soon, why not wait and plan a trip more centered around diving which is a much better way to do this? If it's going to be a long time, after doing just the certification dives and no other diving, you will not have the skills firmly ingrained and are likely to forget quite a bit of it and may find yourself mostly needing to start over. If that's the case I'd strongly consider a Discover dive of some sort - while it may not be the ideal way to go, it's practically made for this situation.

 

[gryffin]

After considering all of the options, we have decided to just do the Discover Scuba program this time around. Instead of booking a cruise excursion, we booked a day at Ti Kaye in St. Lucia, and we'll be doing the DSD program with Island Divers- the open water dive part of the program is a shore dive.

After the DSD, we can go on another dive with them if we want. If we enjoy the experience, we will get certified another time, maybe on a vacation more centered around diving as Damselfish suggests.