Open Water with Referrals, SSI + PADI?

[tstormdiver]

No. You can't.

---------- Post added September 27th, 2013 at 06:10 PM ----------

You CAN however certify in full at your hometown via SSI and then dive with a PADI shop at your destination

What are you talking about???? My shop (SSI) has students do classroom & pool & then do referrals with PADI shops/ instructors, at their destinations, all the time. Our shop is quite landlocked in the Midwest & our dive season very short (late May- mid Oct), plus a lot of people have no desire to dive in a quarry. Yes, I realize PADI, SSI & a lot of other agencies don't play nice with each other, but what the OP is asking is certainly doable. It would be wise to call ahead to make sure you'll be accepted, but there has almost never been any kind of issue.

 

[Quero]

Yes, you can do it. Standards very clearly permit this:

Referrals from Other Organizations
When receiving a referred diver from another training organization for course completion, follow the Referral Procedures in the General Standards and Procedures Guide. Use the Scuba Review program and the Open Water Diver Course Final Exam to preassess the referred diver’s knowledge and skills.

If you can't find a PADI shop that knows the procedure, you may quote this paragraph of the Standards.

 

[scoobydrew]

To the OP - Yes you can, it is easy. I work n the Caribbean and am a PADI instructor. Last week I did the open water dives for someone that had started the course with an SSI facility exactly as you describe. The universal referral program works fine in this way. If you want piece of mind then just work out where you would want to stop off and complete your open water training and then email the dive centre(s) you want to dive with and explain how you are going about this and ask for a cost and times involved. Upon completion the PADI instructor will sign off what you do and you then take that paperwork back home with you and give it to your original SSI instructor to process. You will end up with an SSI cert card but thats fine.

 

[WheelsUSN]

To the OP - Yes you can, it is easy. I work n the Caribbean and am a PADI instructor. Last week I did the open water dives for someone that had started the course with an SSI facility exactly as you describe. The universal referral program works fine in this way. If you want piece of mind then just work out where you would want to stop off and complete your open water training and then email the dive centre(s) you want to dive with and explain how you are going about this and ask for a cost and times involved. Upon completion the PADI instructor will sign off what you do and you then take that paperwork back home with you and give it to your original SSI instructor to process. You will end up with an SSI cert card but thats fine.

It can be done this way for a universal referral but PADI recommends (doesn't prohibit) that PADI instructors not do this so it may be harder to find someone to use the universal referral procedures. It is easier to find someone to issue you a PADI cert using the procedures listed in earlier posts but trying to do it in the timeframe that a cruise ship is in port can be difficult.

One problem with using the universal referral from a instructors point of view is that you are signing off that you saw the student complete all of the requirements of the other agency. As a PADI instructor I am not familiar with all of SSI's requirements. I think that SSI requires 5 dives while PADI only requires 4. Does SSI require any skills that PADI doesn't? Since I don't know that then how can I honestly sign a piece of paper saying that I observed the student complete all of the requirements? For a universal referral (from an SSI instructor) I am supposed to conduct the open water dives to SSI standards but I honestly don't know how or if those standards are different from PADI standards.

 

[scoobydrew]

One problem with using the universal referral from a instructors point of view is that you are signing off that you saw the student complete all of the requirements of the other agency. As a PADI instructor I am not familiar with all of SSI's requirements. I think that SSI requires 5 dives while PADI only requires 4. Does SSI require any skills that PADI doesn't? Since I don't know that then how can I honestly sign a piece of paper saying that I observed the student complete all of the requirements? For a universal referral (from an SSI instructor) I am supposed to conduct the open water dives to SSI standards but I honestly don't know how or if those standards are different from PADI standards.

As I understand the universal referral program, I as a PADI instructor am not supposed to be aware of SSI's requirements. I am supposed to ensure that the students meet PADI's standards for completion and SSI will accept that if they have met PADI's standards then they are happy enough.

SSI require 5 dives for completion but PADI only require 4, as such if signed off by a PADI pro then the 4 dives are sufficient. my understanding is that previously the 5th dive could just be a skin dive but this is now not even required.

Observations I have are that procedures can vary but the result should be the same and the key is heavily on finding good instructors who should be able to make the learning seamless irrespective of agency differences. Things like buddy checks and certain skills are different within the agencies but this is easy to coach through and you could even ague that it provides more training for the student.

 

[WheelsUSN]

As I understand the universal referral program, I as a PADI instructor am not supposed to be aware of SSI's requirements. I am supposed to ensure that the students meet PADI's standards for completion and SSI will accept that if they have met PADI's standards then they are happy enough.

That is not the way it was explained to me and the website for the universal referral program (www.universalreferral.com) no longer exists. I have seen references on SSI and NAUI's websites to a Universal Referral Program manual but can not locate it. I found a copy of the Universal Referral form on a shop's website and it says that you are supposed to conduct the skills as listed in the URP manual and the Skills Information sheet. Without the website there is no longer a place to obtain either of those references so how would I know if I was in compliance with the program or not?

Without having access to the to the program standards I choose not to participate in it. I will happily follow PADIs standards for taking a referral from another organization as outlined in the instructor manual and on the PADI pros website.

 

[tstormdiver]

It can be done this way for a universal referral but PADI recommends (doesn't prohibit) that PADI instructors not do this so it may be harder to find someone to use the universal referral procedures. It is easier to find someone to issue you a PADI cert using the procedures listed in earlier posts but trying to do it in the timeframe that a cruise ship is in port can be difficult.

None of my students who have done dives on using the referral system have ever had a problem. Either they, or myself will call the dive shop atthe destination & make sure there will be no issues beforehand,.. so there are no surprises.

One problem with using the universal referral from a instructors point of view is that you are signing off that you saw the student complete all of the requirements of the other agency. As a PADI instructor I am not familiar with all of SSI's requirements. I think that SSI requires 5 dives while PADI only requires 4. Does SSI require any skills that PADI doesn't? Since I don't know that then how can I honestly sign a piece of paper saying that I observed the student complete all of the requirements? For a universal referral (from an SSI instructor) I am supposed to conduct the open water dives to SSI standards but I honestly don't know how or if those standards are different from PADI standards.

SSI is 4 dives minimum, but a lot of SSI shops opt to do more dives. It used to be a minimum of 5 dives, but that has changed. SSI allows & in fact encourages instructor(s) to go beyond the minimum skills.
SSI's skills are not that different from PADI's. Both agencies adhere to the RSTC standards. I know our shop goes well & beyond the minimum standard skills in an OW course. The biggest difference I have seen is PADI still encourages giving an OOA diver the Octo & SSI's standards require giving the primary. There's nothing to be affraid of with a properly trained SSI referral student. SSI really isn't that much off from PADI.

 

[WheelsUSN]

None of my students who have done dives on using the referral system have ever had a problem. Either they, or myself will call the dive shop atthe destination & make sure there will be no issues beforehand,.. so there are no surprises.

There's nothing to be affraid of with a properly trained SSI referral student. SSI really isn't that much off from PADI.

I'm not afraid of a properly trained SSI referral student and have taken several of them and certified them as PADI divers. I can't certify that someone has met standards that I am not familiar with but will gladly follow the standards that I am familiar with. Anytime a shop or student calls us to inquire about referrals we make sure that they know how we will conduct it,.. so there are no surprises.

---------- Post added September 28th, 2013 at 01:23 PM ----------

SSI allows & in fact encourages instructor(s) to go beyond the minimum skills.

From the 2013 SSI Standards Manual (it indicates that the standards for each course are included in the instructor manual which I don't have access to).

8. Exceeding Standards: SSI Instructors may exceed Standards, may provide more complete coverage of the materials, may provide additional pool/confined water and open water scuba training dives. Incorporating newer, safer and easier techniques and equipment are encouraged. All knowledge and skills changes must be approved by the SSI Service Center prior to incorporating the change. Certification may not be withheld if a student meets SSI standards, but not arbitrary Instructor imposed conditions


​It appears that they agree with PADI that you can teach more than the standards require but you can't make that extra material a requirement for certification.

 

[tstormdiver]

I'm not afraid of a properly trained SSI referral student and have taken several of them and certified them as PADI divers. I can't certify that someone has met standards that I am not familiar with but will gladly follow the standards that I am familiar with. Anytime a shop or student calls us to inquire about referrals we make sure that they know how we will conduct it,.. so there are no surprises.

For Pete's sake,... The 2 agnecies aren't very different in the basic required skills.

---------- Post added September 28th, 2013 at 01:23 PM ----------

From the 2013 SSI Standards Manual (it indicates that the standards for each course are included in the instructor manual which I don't have access to).

8. Exceeding Standards: SSI Instructors may exceed Standards, may provide more complete coverage of the materials, may provide additional pool/confined water and open water scuba training dives. Incorporating newer, safer and easier techniques and equipment are encouraged. All knowledge and skills changes must be approved by the SSI Service Center prior to incorporating the change. Certification may not be withheld if a student meets SSI standards, but not arbitrary Instructor imposed conditions


​It appears that they agree with PADI that you can teach more than the standards require but you can't make that extra material a requirement for certification.

I didn't say change the skills, I said exceed them. I know the standards. I have to read through them 3-4 times a year as SSI makes minor changes several times a year. Most of the changes do not pertain to me, but I still read them to make sure I don't miss anything important. There is a difference. I teach the additional skills as is written in the SSI instructor manual. & Yes, it is correct the additional skills can not be used to hold back a student. I wouldn't do that anyway. If that were the case,.. then the student is also, likely not comfortable in the required basic skills. If that is the case, I would not recommend them for their OW dives or finish up their OW dives, without extra remedial work, at no additional cost to the student,.. within reason. For me to pass or recommend a student to go on, there must be comfort in the skills. You are trying to make differences where there are none.

 

[WheelsUSN]

For Pete's sake,... The 2 agnecies aren't very different in the basic required skills.

I wouldn't expect them to be very different since the goal of both agencies is the same, to train an entry level diver. However while doing preassessments with students from SSI there have been skills that they told me they didn't learn from the originating shop. I don't know if that was because of a difference in agency standards, the previous instructor not following standards, or the student not remembering what they were taught. There may have been other skills that they were taught that I didn't ask to see because they aren't part of PADI standards. I have had PADI referral students tell me the same thing but the majority of the time after I demonstrate the skill for them they state that they do remember doing that with their previous instructor.

I don't have any problem with the way SSI divers are trained, but I will not sign a piece of paper saying that I witnessed them demonstrate mastery of standards that I am not familiar with. Why is that an issue? I will happily certify them if I see them demonstrate mastery of the standards of the agency I instruct for.