Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[gianaameri]

Depends but I would not say that five to ten grand would be outrageous depending on instructor, gear, gasses, etc. Plus the time.
Advanced Nitrox/Deco procedures 600.00
Advanced Trimix 1200.00
cavern/intro 600.00
Apprentice cave 600.00
Cave 800.00
Technical Cave 800.00 - 1000.00
BTW these prices don't normally include fills, at least for trimix, and one trimix fill could be a hundred bucks or so. Easily.

So there's almost 4 grand there give or take.

Then gear. Could likely get in enough gear for another 3-5 grand or so. Including multiple double sets, regs, stages, analyzers, reels, spools, lights, etc..

Most of this is a WAG by the way but based on research I did at one time probably not too far off.

Training is the most variable as you have different agencies whose courses mix and match in different ways.

---------- Post added December 30th, 2013 at 08:30 PM ----------

Wow from OW? with me OW is 395 now, AOW 375.00, Rescue 185.00, Intro to Tech 425.00 and then a bunch of dives. Then you'd need to find a cave instructor as stated above for the rest. Gear is going to be the same but spread out over a while and if you tell me you want to do caves or advanced wrecks we'll start you off on the gear path leading to that. BPW, long hose, dry suit, tech fins, good lights. NO Poodle jackets, DIN regs not yoke, and gear that will grow with you and you won't have to replace it unless you break it.

Add USD 12k for the rebreather and rebreather training you'll eventually end-up buying...

 

[Cleavitt]

Stated and answered... DAYS AGO! I will try and find my post in this thread, but the point is, there is absolutely no evidence anyone knew there was an uncertified 15 year-old behind the cave atlas posts. See Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

Where is that dead horse icon??????

So, if the diver is 50 instead of 15 diving that deep in a cave on Air does it make it any better? You have an incompetent adult instead of an incompetent minor diving a cave.

I really can't follow your logic. It's all over the place. You are the one that has been repeatedly asking why nobody stopped a 15 year old from doing these dives. When people repeatedly point out that nobody (other than his own family) seems to have known a 15 year old was doing these dives you ask 'why does it matter what his age was?'

Unfortunately, we had an incompetent adult taking an incompetent minor to dive in a cave deep on Air and it was not a surprise to B. that he was called to recover the body of at least one of the two dead incompetent divers.

Again, it has not been established that anyone in the cave diving or general diving community was aware that the 15 year old was doing these dives. The recovery diver "B." was aware that the father was doing some level (to what degree is unknown) of diving that he wasn't trained for and told him more than once to get proper training.

Keeping in mind that...

• We are talking about a grown man that was not known to be breaking any laws in regards to his diving.
• Nobody, including the recovery diver, seems to have known that he was bringing his kid on some of these dives.
• The father had a life long history (based on his arrest records) of bad judgment that resulted in other tragedies.

What exactly do you think the recovery diver should have done in this situation? You seem to be pointing your finger a lot, but I don't see any real solutions from you.

 

[VetteRanger]

Hey, if pilots can do it, why can't we?

LOL. As they say, luck is the residue of preparation.

I cracked up when the Flight Instructor said, "Remember our deal. If I say "I've got the plane" ... "I'VE got the plane".

Here's the deal. Probably some people who have spent sufficient time with a flight simulator can get in a plane and do that. I guarantee that the average person could not. And no matter HOW much flight simulator experience the neophyte had, if a minor mechanical issue had developed, or a 30 mph cross-wind came up, or a nasty little rain squall, or the pilot suffered a sneezing fit, ad infinitum ... the real pilot would have had those controls.

As it was, the "test pilot" had the common flight simulator problem of being a little shaky lining up on the runway. He made a dozen little adjustments to get straight after a long approach in perfect conditions, if the film came across accurately.

 

[drrich2]

So, if the diver is 50 instead of 15 diving that deep in a cave on Air does it make it any better?

You have an incompetent adult instead of an incompetent minor diving a cave.

It would make it a lot better. When dealing with adults not compromised by severe mental illness or developmental disability, we presume they are capable of making informed decisions. They may not choose to exert the resources (time, effort, money, training, etc...) to achieve competence at the proposed activity, but they are presumed to be capable of doing so. Thus, the responsibility for their negligence or excessive risk taking is on them, hence the rest of us have no blood on our hands for that.

Minors are generally presumed (not always accurately, but a community standard none-the-less exists; 15 is not adulthood) to not be reliably adequately capable of making major informed decisions independently. Hence restrictions against signing themselves into the military, buying alcohol or cigarettes, committing to written contracts, etc... As such, there is a presumed duty of the parent to oversee the child & acting as a guardian to make decisions on the minor's behalf.

While many of us are loathe to infringe parental authority, as the grisly examples of child abuse and incest teach us, there are times when the State is presumed to have a duty to intercede on the minor's behalf when the parent is not competent, or is actually evil, in mishandling the minor's affairs.

When an adult dies foolishly, we may pity the tragedy but shrug and say 'Hey, that's part of the price of liberty.' You make your decisions and deal with the consequences.

When a child dies foolishly, it's a different matter. Even for those of us who aren't fond of governmental paternalism.

Thankfully, kids dying in caves due to inadequate training and poor parental oversight don't seem to be numerous.

Richard.

---------- Post added December 30th, 2013 at 08:52 PM ----------

gianaameri:

Following up some of your earlier reply to my post, without quoting things since this thread is way long already:

Yes, if you are entrusted with the key to a locked cave site, then I believe most of us would expect you to be prudent regarding people you let in under your watch.

And if you saw inept people entering whom you feared might compromise your safety if you dove the cave at the same time, yes, that's a very valid fear. Many people in that situation would either try to talk them out of it (partly as a charitable kindness, which is admirable) and possibly for self-preservation. And failing that might leave and come back when they weren't around.

All that said, and this is a subjective impression on my part and partly rooted in my thinking you're the person I debated with a bit in the bang stick thread (sorry if you are not), but you seem to me to be the most prone to say 'I'd call the police' of anybody I've seen on this forum.

Just an observation.

Richard.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Depends but I would not say that five to ten grand would be outrageous depending on instructor, gear, gasses, etc. Plus the time.
Advanced Nitrox/Deco procedures 600.00
Advanced Trimix 1200.00
cavern/intro 600.00
Apprentice cave 600.00
Cave 800.00
Technical Cave 800.00 - 1000.00
BTW these prices don't normally include fills, at least for trimix, and one trimix fill could be a hundred bucks or so. Easily.
So there's almost 4 grand there give or take.

Some of the highest prices I have seen.

 

[shoredivr]

Appreciate this image of the cave, thanks.

I am also from chi twn Doing tmix training with an instructor 12/08/2013 at Eagles Nest, I learned even before you enter the downstream or upstream tunnel, the big room starts at about 110 feet. The space is intimidating. I ran a jump line from the gold line at 160ft deep. Holding at 160ft I ran my spool out 100ft to the wall. I was not being very careful with the spool, until I turned around and tried to see the gold line and the surface opening. When I realized the lifeline I had was the spool in hand, I made sure it was secure. The room is huge and deep. You can drop down to 200 feet or up to 110 feet and 1000 feet around and still not be at the exit to the surface. My cave lite only lit up a small spot and the darkness absorbed all the lite. It would be very easy to get lost. The odds are if you’re untrained you are going to die. Even being a trained cave diver, Eagles Nest is different. Even cave divers should start with a guide or minimum someone with a lot of experience at EN before you dive there.

 

[ItsBruce]

I read NWGratefulDiver as saying that we won't learn anything from this accident. I would hope that what you said you already knew, so did you learn it from this accident?

Sure this accident underscores huge messages but is it learning? I hope not.

Once in a while an accident reveals an obscure failure mode that is eye opening to at least some divers, then we learn something. In this case the path taken is so far from appropriate by so many with a result so predictable that me can only shake our heads and pray.

For anyone gettng sloppy in their dive thinking it's a good wake-up call.

Pete

I have not yet read the whole thread, but I just had to comment because it is so right.

 

[PfcAJ]

Some of the highest prices I have seen.

I guess you haven't seen the prices for GUE courses then.

600 for Fundamentals, 2k for cave 1, 2k for cave 2, 2k for tech 1, 2k for tech 2. $8600 just in tuition. Add in the dives (min 25 between classes, and in reality, no one takes the next class with just the minimum), the gas (don't get me started...) the gear (doubles, stages, drysuits, regs, lights), lodging, flights if you're an out of towner, park fees, boat fees (for the trimix classes) etc etc.

I'm going to go cry now.

Its been worth it, though. 10/10 would recommend.

Technical diving is expensive. No way around it.

 

[Drin]

Some of the highest prices I have seen.

Nope, pretty much standard these days for good quality courses.

- Adrian

 

[lv2dive]

Separate issues. Then I am done feeding.

1. Informed consent at the age of 15, with regards to the risks involved in diving EN, is oxymoronic. Period. So "better?" I am not going to answer that one. Different? Hell yes. Sanchez was not capable of making informed consent. Spivey, on the other hand, not only was old enough (mid-thirties) but had the education (OW Certification that is crystal clear about staying within limits of one's certification) and reinforcement of that education from signage as well as people who spoke to him and told him to get training.

This incident is a tragedy - there was a senseless death of a child (Sanchez), families of both Sanchez and Spivey are having to deal with heartache, and recovery divers and LEO had to deal with the incident itself and will carry the memory with them for many Dec 25th's to come. I feel for all of the above - but not for Spivey - as ice cold as it sounds, he was an adult who made VERY BAD choices and brought this on himself and his son, and BOTH had to pay the ultimate price for his hubris. And now after his death, Spivey's father is calling for closure of the cave, as if it is the cave's fault his son had no capacity for judgement. This is exactly why cave divers don't want unqualified divers diving caves..

I don't understand what point is trying to be made with the last sentence and I guess it's not really critical. If he were competent, Spivey would have never been in the nest at 233' on air OR with his son, never mind both of those things.

2. Responsibility. For crying out loud, hindsight is always 20/20, is it not? I mean rly? I am sure every single person on this board had something they would go back and do just a little differently given the opportunity.

I am hardly going to hold someone accountable for loaning another gear, to practice for a cave class, and then drag the lender over the coals because the lendee went and drowned themselves in a cave. I don't know all the details and I don't need to - what do I know is what I would do TODAY if I ran across a man and a 15 year-old is different than what i would have done last because everything is always SO MUCH MORE CLEAR with the benefit of perspective!

So, if the diver is 50 instead of 15 diving that deep in a cave on Air does it make it any better?

You have an incompetent adult instead of an incompetent minor diving a cave.

Unfortunately, we had an incompetent adult taking an incompetent minor to dive in a cave deep on Air and it was not a surprise to B. that he was called to recover the body of at least one of the two dead incompetent divers.