Wanted Old Cochran Computers

[RonR]

Still sounds like an attempt to reverse engineer to me. Why choose the Cochran line of computers? Doing this with other brands? Would you be willing to sign an NDA and pay some fees for their information? Have you offered this? After all, they likely spent some bucks developing their software and unit firmware. NOTE...I in no way represent Cochran...just curious what Jvanostrand is really trying to do.

If others here want to donate, no problem...its a free world. But for me to donate an item I paid hundreds for, to a person whom I have no knowledge about, is not happening.

You’re not understanding what he’s doing. He is, as a volunteer effort, trying to build an open source, free software library that will enable third party dive log programs to reliably read information from these computers. In order to do that he needs to know and be able to test how various models send data. It’s got nothing to do with “reverse engineering” hardware or firmware- he just needs models to test for uploading dives. Cochran could very easily just provide this information to someone who is trying to improve the dive log options for Cochran computer users, but they apparently choose not to.

As a dive computer developer we are very happy when people want to do things like this, and we have been actively supporting third party dive log developers like Subsurface, MacDive, Dive Log Manager, Diving Log 6, etc. as well as library developers like LibDiveComputer. It’s absolutely no threat to our design or IP to let developers know how we send data and to help them develop reliable dive log software options for our users. We are happy to provide them support and loaner equipment to test, because they are providing more value for our users- including things like developing smartphone and tablet access. Working with all of these developers has been a pleasure. Most of their programs go way beyond anything any computer manufacturer provides. We have always been mystified as to why some other computer manufacturers don't support this sort of effort, in an (apparent) attempt to keep their users captive to a single proprietary dive log program.

As to why Cochran, I don't know the OP, but I’d hazard a guess that like most open source efforts it’s because he wants to be able to use the software himself, and he uses their computers. Most other manufacturers by now happily support third party developers, or their data structures have been worked out by the developers. Apparently that's not the case for Cochran.

-Ron

 

[jvanostrand]

There is value in having people's dive logs. I asked last year for testers and got little response and what response I did get didn't result in any testing or data. I have access to new models of Cochran computers and I wanted to flesh out support for older models since I encountered two recently. Since they are really old (up to 20 years in some cases) I figured they had little enough value that I'd outright ask for them. One used Cochran I purchased was $25 and 21 years old, others were $70 or so. The point of having them is that it makes testing far easier. The point of getting them free is that it creates a favourable enough cost/benefit for me, a volunteer, I'm probably done purchasing old models.

Two things can help without having to ship computers. First is if you have a current model, like an EMC, Commander with a s/n after 21000, or a Gemini that works with Analyst 4.01 you can download Subsurface, install it and import from your dive computer after selecting the "Save libdivecomputer log" and "Save libdivecomputer dump" and then send both files to me and your Analyst CAN file. The same can be done using dctool from Index of /builds, although it's probably less convenient for most people. Obviously this requires a Cochran data cable and a compatible version of Analyst.

Second if you have an older model those methods will fail to produce a dump but the log file could be helpful. A copy of your Analyst CAN or WAN file makes it more helpful, if you have one.

Both of those help me with obtaining more test data but don't help if the serial communications protocol is different than the models I currently have working. Also sometimes I have to dive the computer to create reference data in order to interpret the results. Testing is very iterative and asking even a tech savvy volunteer to test a new program over and over and over is frustrating for everyone involved and very time consuming. Having saves a lot of time.

I have asked everyone who's contacted me to do the above before money is spent on shipping.

 

[jvanostrand]

As a dive computer developer we are very happy when people want to do things like this, and we have been actively supporting third party dive log developers like Subsurface, MacDive, Dive Log Manager, Diving Log 6, etc. as well as library developers like LibDiveComputer. It’s absolutely no threat to our design or IP to let developers know how we send data and to help them develop reliable dive log software options for our users. We are happy to provide them support and loaner equipment to test, because they are providing more value for our users- including things like developing smartphone and tablet access. Working with all of these developers has been a pleasure. Most of their programs go way beyond anything any computer manufacturer provides. We have always been mystified as to why some other computer manufacturers don't support this sort of effort, in an (apparent) attempt to keep their users captive to a single proprietary dive log program.
-Ron

As a now self-unemployed (I'm too young to be retired) business person I've talked with several companies and I've come to understand that sometimes companies provide software because it's expected rather than it being a profit centre. Their expertise is often in hardware. Desktop software can be a struggle for a non-software company. Cochran's Analyst is an example of that. Very featureful but it's design is firmly anchored in the Windows 3.1 days. Open source can be a godsend for companies who just want to use their resources to make better hardware instead of spending it on unfamiliar desktop software development.

Thanks for commenting RonR.

 

[KeithG]

Are you physically diving the test computers?

You may want to consider whipping up a DIY pressure chamber. It makes it way easier as you can do the dives in your kitchen using a bicycle tire pump.

DIY dive computer pressure test chamber. Under $80

 

[jvanostrand]

Nice, thanks for the tip. I was considering just getting an 8' section of 4" PVC and filling it with water just to get an 8 ft dive. Sometimes all I need is a dive without any significant depth. Your link gives me ideas.

 

[KeithG]

Nice, thanks for the tip. I was considering just getting an 8' section of 4" PVC and filling it with water just to get an 8 ft dive. Sometimes all I need is a dive without any significant depth. Your link gives me ideas.

8 ft dive? Underachiever!

I can put my computers into deco hell with just a few extra pumps. Going down is not a problem. I do need to be careful with the built-in bleed valve as it is very easy to trigger ascent alarms and screw up a "dive".

With the larger chamber provided by a water filter you can choose to do either wet or dry dives as I have about 18 inches of height. Fill it half full and put a coffee cup in the bottom and you have a dry dive. Dry then wet? Just flip it over. I always fill it with as much water as possible since I am lazy and do not want to pump much.

A beneficial "feature" of my chamber is that it leaks. Slowly. So I can pump my computer / camera down and then walk away and have it slowly surface as I grocery shop.

 

[RayfromTX]

You’re not understanding what he’s doing. He is, as a volunteer effort, trying to build an open source, free software library that will enable third party dive log programs to reliably read information from these computers. In order to do that he needs to know and be able to test how various models send data. It’s got nothing to do with “reverse engineering” hardware or firmware- he just needs models to test for uploading dives. Cochran could very easily just provide this information to someone who is trying to improve the dive log options for Cochran computer users, but they apparently choose not to.

As a dive computer developer we are very happy when people want to do things like this, and we have been actively supporting third party dive log developers like Subsurface, MacDive, Dive Log Manager, Diving Log 6, etc. as well as library developers like LibDiveComputer. It’s absolutely no threat to our design or IP to let developers know how we send data and to help them develop reliable dive log software options for our users. We are happy to provide them support and loaner equipment to test, because they are providing more value for our users- including things like developing smartphone and tablet access. Working with all of these developers has been a pleasure. Most of their programs go way beyond anything any computer manufacturer provides. We have always been mystified as to why some other computer manufacturers don't support this sort of effort, in an (apparent) attempt to keep their users captive to a single proprietary dive log program.

As to why Cochran, I don't know the OP, but I’d hazard a guess that like most open source efforts it’s because he wants to be able to use the software himself, and he uses their computers. Most other manufacturers by now happily support third party developers, or their data structures have been worked out by the developers. Apparently that's not the case for Cochran.

-Ron

It is my experience that it is almost impossible to accurately guess at the motives goals and restraints that a company bases it's decisions on from outside the company walls. It is often difficult to make a correct assessment from inside the company if you are not inside the office of the central management team.

I have seen people guess and create rumors about my company and my own management decisions and they are uniformly and consistently incorrect. There are simply too many factors that outsiders are not privy to. I spend my whole working career constructing a philosophy and approach to how I do things based on literally decades of lessons learned and successful navigation of complex currents.

It is easy to fall into the trap of simplifying the reasons for an approach taken by a company that may differ from our own pov. We may not have the whole picture.

I have done this many times and later learned that there was more to the picture and I acted or spoke based on my own selfish motives. There are several players in this discussion and all are honorable people from what I can tell. Please let us always remember that we are on the same team and we will always benefit in the end by erring on the side of respecting each other and giving the benefit of the doubt when something seems a little off.

Communication is the best medicine for conflict but we are not always well equipped to be diplomatic. We can try. I recently was slighted by someone and composed a response to that person which I decided to sit on for a week. That was 2 months ago. That person has shown me several times since then that they are not exactly the person they seemed to be when they attacked me unfairly. I rather like them actually and I will be sitting on that response for a long long time.

Of course I could be mistaken.

 

[RonR]

It is my experience that it is almost impossible to accurately guess at the motives goals and restraints that a company bases it's decisions on from outside the company walls. It is often difficult to make a correct assessment from inside the company if you are not inside the office of the central management team.

I have seen people guess and create rumors about my company and my own management decisions and they are uniformly and consistently incorrect. There are simply too many factors that outsiders are not privy to. I spend my whole working career constructing a philosophy and approach to how I do things based on literally decades of lessons learned and successful navigation of complex currents.

It is easy to fall into the trap of simplifying the reasons for an approach taken by a company that may differ from our own pov. We may not have the whole picture.

I have done this many times and later learned that there was more to the picture and I acted or spoke based on my own selfish motives. There are several players in this discussion and all are honorable people from what I can tell. Please let us always remember that we are on the same team and we will always benefit in the end by erring on the side of respecting each other and giving the benefit of the doubt when something seems a little off.

Communication is the best medicine for conflict but we are not always well equipped to be diplomatic. We can try. I recently was slighted by someone and composed a response to that person which I decided to sit on for a week. That was 2 months ago. That person has shown me several times since then that they are not exactly the person they seemed to be when they attacked me unfairly. I rather like them actually and I will be sitting on that response for a long long time.

Of course I could be mistaken.

I don’t want to be misunderstood. I’m not impugning the motives of Cochran in (apparently, according to the OP) not cooperating with third party developers, I’m just saying I don’t understand why any manufacturer would not want to help those that are freely helping offer more dive log options to their customers. But I can have no idea what considerations are going on behind the scenes. There may be very good reasons. The OP is clearly a Cochran fan, and it’s his motivations that were being questioned, and that motivated my response.

Having worked with a number of third party dive log developers and open source library builders, I’m a huge fan of their efforts and contributions to the diving community. I hate to see their efforts questioned.

-Ron

 

[RainPilot]

My 2 psi worth, Cochran has not been "doubting" the OP, rather that came from others who feel suspicious about a request for free computers. I personally have no issue with what he is doing and if I had an old Cochran around I might loan it to him, others feel differently and that's OK too.

Having read several of the Cochran threads on here, especially regarding requests for features etc, it would appear that their main revenue stream is from the US DoD as principal client. The rec versions seem to be very much secondary. FTR I have no issue with this, if I was making PDC and the military contracted me, I don't even think I would keep selling to the public, the buttpain wouldn't be worth it to me.

Reading between the lines, maybe there is a reason they are unwilling or, more likely, unable to provide the inner workings to Joe Diver?

 

[Dive Cochran]

It is my experience that it is almost impossible to accurately guess at the motives goals and restraints that a company bases it's decisions on from outside the company walls. It is often difficult to make a correct assessment from inside the company if you are not inside the office of the central management team.

I have seen people guess and create rumors about my company and my own management decisions and they are uniformly and consistently incorrect. There are simply too many factors that outsiders are not privy to. I spend my whole working career constructing a philosophy and approach to how I do things based on literally decades of lessons learned and successful navigation of complex currents.

It is easy to fall into the trap of simplifying the reasons for an approach taken by a company that may differ from our own pov. We may not have the whole picture.

I have done this many times and later learned that there was more to the picture and I acted or spoke based on my own selfish motives. There are several players in this discussion and all are honorable people from what I can tell. Please let us always remember that we are on the same team and we will always benefit in the end by erring on the side of respecting each other and giving the benefit of the doubt when something seems a little off.

Communication is the best medicine for conflict but we are not always well equipped to be diplomatic. We can try. I recently was slighted by someone and composed a response to that person which I decided to sit on for a week. That was 2 months ago. That person has shown me several times since then that they are not exactly the person they seemed to be when they attacked me unfairly. I rather like them actually and I will be sitting on that response for a long long time.

Of course I could be mistaken.

You're not mistaken and thank you.
Have a great weekend

Safe Diving
John Corso
Sales Manager Worldwide
Richardson, TX U.S.A.
Cochran Military
Cochran Undersea Technology