14yr old came up at end of 2nd open water dive and is now scared

[Aaron528]

Recreational tables have an average rate of 1:5000 to 1:10000 DCS hits for people diving well within these limits. The incident rate is statistically higher where people have performed multiple shallow dives with shortish surface intervals. Tables are NOT known theory, they do NOT model accurately what happens in the body. They are nothing more than a statistical tool used to bring the risk down to an acceptable level.

FWIW, the dives I did that started this debate began very early in the morning and none of them was more than 30 mins. There was a minimum of an hour in-between the first 2 dives and more than 2 hours before dive 3 started. At least another hour in-between each afternoon dive. The 5th dive(looking back in my log) was short and shallow. I realize now that the standards were violated, but I'd like to repeat that this seemed to be an exception made for an unusual circumstance and I happened to be there. I did not get the sense that shop did that on a regular basis.

 

[dmcutter]

I'm wondering about the other guy who had to leave the country the next day. I hope he was on a cruise ship, not flying. The outfitter I dove with in Aruba wouldn't let anyone dive the day before they were flying out...

And on the original topic, I have never really been comfortable in the water because I sink like a stone. Even when I was in great cardio shape from running and cycling I had no endurance in the water.

When I started taking my class this past summer, I had terrible issues with the mask removal. In fact, I quit the class after the second night in the pool. I hate quitting anything, though, so I went back and after the next pool session I had it all down 100% and was really stoked about doing my OW dives at the quarry.

The first dive was a disaster-first time in a wetsuit and I was bouncing all over the place. The second dive we were supposed to do the mask clearing and I freaked and bolted to the surface. I didn't go back for the second day of diving. Of course I was eaten up with remorse for quitting yet again, and a week later I went back to the quarry with my instructor and another student to finish the dives. Went like clockwork and I've been hooked ever since.

I'm sure the cold had some major impact, but the whole breathing underwater thing was so foreign to me that it just took a while to work through it. BTW, I'm 51, former Marine, and life long risk taker. I used to love rock climbing before tearing my rotator cuffs. People with a fear of heights could never understand how I could do that, which I never understood. Now I understand-people who are comfortable in the water couldn't conceive of how I could have a problem just taking a mask off underwater. Everyone has some sort of phobia.

 

[boulderjohn]

I don't believe the PADI limit of 3 training dives per day is based on fear of DCS. I read the reason once but can't recall. I do know you are allowed to have students do more than 3 dives in a day, but the fourth would not count as a training dive.

There is no reason a student can't do four short training dives in a day in relative safety in terms of DCS. It is still a training violation, though.

 

[flots am]

You seem completely unaware or more likely, unwilling to admit that tables and the models used in them are far from perfect. Recreational tables have an average rate of 1:5000 to 1:10000 DCS hits for people diving well within these limits. The incident rate is statistically higher where people have performed multiple shallow dives with shortish surface intervals. Tables are NOT known theory, they do NOT model accurately what happens in the body. They are nothing more than a statistical tool used to bring the risk down to an acceptable level.

"Shortish" is not a valid statistical or scientific term and I'd be fascinated to see where your stats come from since nobody knows how many dives are done by how many divers or what the profiles or surface intervals were.

Unless you can cough up something more substantial, I don't see any safety problem with doing repetitive NDL dives and therefore still don't have any problem with 4 dives in a day.

flots

 

[tlj3071]

...Unless you can cough up something more substantial, I don't see any safety problem with doing repetitive NDL dives and therefore still don't have any problem with 4 dives in a day....

When String said:

...Tables are NOT known theory, they do NOT model accurately what happens in the body. They are nothing more than a statistical tool used to bring the risk down to an acceptable level...

He was absolutely correct. The NDL tables - whether from PADI, NAUI, NAVY, or ones you roll-your-own - are nothing more than mathematical models of what is supposed to be happening in the "tissues" of a statistical "body". No matter how well this is modeled - even if you were able to create a model for your specific physiological profile - it would still not provide a 100% guarantee against DCS for even a short-duration shallow dive. There are simply too many variables involved.

Tom

 

[j.doe]

Not sure if someone has had the same suggestion.

I have seen this a bunch of times. Up here in Canada even our warmest waters are freezing cold most of the time. Young divers, nervous divers or those whom are uncomfortable can sometimes be on the edge of panic. Then when they take of the mask and get a shot of water in the nose it causes them to think of drowning etc or magnify the panic.

I often tell people that when taking off the mask they should focus on breathing in their mouth and out the nose instead of the mouth. This will give a positive pressure in the nose and result in less of a chance of causing distress by having ice cold water enter. They can keep up this out the nose breathing until their mask is back on and they fully clear the mask. By taking the mask off when they first start breathing out the nose, the cold water reaction to suddenly breath in when the cold hits the face is also reduced.

The other thing that can be done is similar to a resort dive. Plan to take a guided dive (outside of the cert dives) with a slow paced and very skilled instructor. THey should be able to take the student slowly into the environment upping and reducing the depth gradually. (A static line on a bouy helps for this). Just work on breathing slow and steady the whole time with a visual reference from the instructor for breathing in and out. After a dive or two like that he will be looking for excitement. Have someone in the water with him that he trusts - IE his dad - whom he has practiced air sharing with in the pool. They can practice air sharing 3 feet under or less until he is comfortable, and trusts that backup air will be VERY close at had by someone he trusts.

Just my 2 cents. Hope he gets back in the water.

 

[Lobzilla]

Not sure if someone has had the same suggestion.

I have seen this a bunch of times. Up here in Canada even our warmest waters are freezing cold most of the time. Young divers, nervous divers or those whom are uncomfortable can sometimes be on the edge of panic. Then when they take of the mask and get a shot of water in the nose it causes them to think of drowning etc or magnify the panic.

Excellent point. Fluid in the nose is nasty. I found that out during our New Years Eve dive, when the Champagne bubbled through my nose into the mask. Nearly freaked and thought "What a way to die".

For the curious: Champagne in the mask is NOT a good defogger.

 

[flots am]

He was absolutely correct. The NDL tables - whether from PADI, NAUI, NAVY, or ones you roll-your-own - are nothing more than mathematical models of what is supposed to be happening in the "tissues" of a statistical "body".

Nobody said that tables are perfect, however there is no difference between 4 "training" dives in a day, which seems to get people's shorts twisted, and 4 tropical vacation dives in a day, which seems to be perfectly safe for hundreds (thousands ?) of divers every day.

flots.

 

[Karibelle]

In principle I agree that adherence to standards is necessary, but in spite of the technical violation I felt like I had a very positive experience.

Your tag says you're a "divemaster wannabe." Adherence to standards in principle is, in my very humble opinion, not good enough. Lots of people feel like they've had a positive experience, in spite of "technical violation" of the standards, and the failure to stand up and say HEY, THAT WAS NOT RIGHT makes it so when the poop hits the fan later in your diving career, you have not a single leg to stand on.

You, as a student, deserve the best your instructor and your agency has to offer. You didn't receive that level of service, and letting that behaviour slip by does us all a disservice. The standards are there to protect you. Rewarding poor behaviour on the part of an instructor or a shop by talking about this as a positive experience hurts us all.

kari

 

[sansky]

Hello,

My 14 year old son was doing great in scuba classes with my husband and 16 year old son. He does want to dive, this is not a "forced" activity. Then on the 2nd dive he had to hold his mask off for one minute and put it back on. He had trouble getting it back on and headed for the surface. Now he says he is thinking too much about all that can happen. He says he does want to finish, but we hired an instructor for a private lesson and he told her after an hour of "surface" practice that he didn't want to dive below.... He told me he was thinking too much. He now says he wants to go again with his father there. Anyone else had this happen after once being comfortable then got scared?

I wish they would take him down 10ft, then 15... etc... but the platform they have is at 30ft so that's where they go.

If he wants to continue I want to support him, but I'm not sure how to do it. My husband who is certified and was taking a refresher to be there for him says it will just take time for him to get comfortable again.

Thanks for anything you can offer me

Taking the mask off underwater is one of the hardest things for alot of students - young or old.
Practicing in the bathtub full of water or stand under the shower head might be an option (or a pool if you have one). I have made over 3700 dives and NEVER HAD MY MASK COME OFF OR KNOCKED OFF! I also did not like that part of class, but I got through it with a very patient instructor and have never looked back or thought about what might happen ....