15 seconds of heart failure

[Mako Mark]

I was exiting from a cave on tuesday, at about 70 minutes of bottom time.

I figured I should have 20 minutes more to go to the exit.

I had an annoyingly foggy mask for some reason, My regular dive buddy wanted me to take photos, and the new dive buddy didnt want any photos taken of her.

Lots of things were going on.

I then swam past a line arrow that was pointing the wrong way!

I should have noticed this on the way in, which is why I had 15 seconds of heart failure when I noticed it on the way out.

Neither of my buddies had noticed it, or if they had they were not concerned.

I checked my air (2000 psi on double 80´s), I mentally retraced my finkicks. I superimposed a mental map of the cave, then visualised what the next passage and cave section should look like.

It did look the way it should have and we (obviously) exited without further incident.

My question is: Should I have removed what seemed to me to be an incorrect line arrow?

 

[Wendy]

I would say no, unless you are the person that palced the arrow on the line in the first place. If you don't know who put it there, when, or why then you should leave it there. After your dive you can find out who is in charge of the main line placement and upkeep of it in that cave and bring this 'odd' line arrow to their attention.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I would say no, unless you are the person that palced the arrow on the line in the first place. If you don't know who put it there, when, or why then you should leave it there. After your dive you can find out who is in charge of the main line placement and upkeep of it in that cave and bring this 'odd' line arrow to their attention.

In most caves I don't think that any one is in charge of the upkeep on lines. The obviouse exception is a few of the caves in Florida where there is a designated group.

I have mixed emotions about this one. While you shouldn't be relying on line markings other than your own to find your way out, I can't think of a reason that any one should be putting incorrect directional information on the line.

If I want to temprarily mark the line like when setting up a circuit, traverse or marking an intersection I use a non-directional marker and I don't leave it in any onger than I have to.

 

[Mako Mark]

that is what I pretty much thought. I did leave it, I do remove my own markers except the non directional ones for traverses etc, but it was that single heart stopping moment of seeing an arrow pointing in, when I was on the way out (I thought).

Since the dive, I have thought long and hard about why it was there too, and I figured that it wasnt as wrong as I first thought. It did in fact point in the direction of a very small cenote, just not the one I was exiting to.

It was an interesting couple of seconds though until I figured out that I should trust my instincts and I was right about my navigation.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Arrown can sometimes just confuse you. there's a flooded mine that we dive and there's 5 entrances that I know of. 4 of them intersect the main line within a short distance of what we call the main entrance. Talk about arrows. Then there are multiple levels with many different circuits. If you don't know where you're going and mark you're path through the intersections (T's) the arrows won't tell you where you are though they do correctly tell which is the shrtest way out at any given point. Oh, in some places the vis really sucks too. It's fun. That's the cave I cut my teeth on after I completed my cave training.

 

[simbrooks]

So lets say somehow there was a silt out as you were leaving on this line with the arrow pointed towards a cenote and not towards where you thought the exit was. You are in touch contact as no-one can see a thing, you swim out, pass over some other markers that tell you that you are going the right way, then come across this one - what would you do?? Do you follow it, turn around, possibly miss the cenote and then come upon one that is telling you to turn again (ie where you have just come from then back to and turn again) - stuck between two arrows pointing towards each other. Again what do you do, turn again and head out ignoring the arrow pointing to the cenote as all other arrows lead out the way you expect?

Will be getting cave training either later this year or early next year, i would imagine it is covered in that training and actually from reading some books about all this (only the NSS-CDS cavern and cave diving manuals so far, but others in the pipelines), i dont recall anything having come up about it. BTW, no i am not going to go do these kind of dives without that training, just reading for curiosities sake and to read the kinds of things i will learn - you wont see me running a reel into a cave system for a little while!

 

[MikeFerrara]

So lets say somehow there was a silt out as you were leaving on this line with the arrow pointed towards a cenote and not towards where you thought the exit was. You are in touch contact as no-one can see a thing, you swim out, pass over some other markers that tell you that you are going the right way, then come across this one - what would you do?? Do you follow it, turn around, possibly miss the cenote and then come upon one that is telling you to turn again (ie where you have just come from then back to and turn again) - stuck between two arrows pointing towards each other. Again what do you do, turn again and head out ignoring the arrow pointing to the cenote as all other arrows lead out the way you expect?

Will be getting cave training either later this year or early next year, i would imagine it is covered in that training and actually from reading some books about all this (only the NSS-CDS cavern and cave diving manuals so far, but others in the pipelines), i dont recall anything having come up about it. BTW, no i am not going to go do these kind of dives without that training, just reading for curiosities sake and to read the kinds of things i will learn - you wont see me running a reel into a cave system for a little while!

It's common to see arrows on permenant lines change direction. Some examples that you'll probably see during your training would be in the Peacock system. Heading from P1 to pothole at first the arrown point to P1. Then you'll see two back to back arrows midway between and beyond that the arrown point to pothole. BTW there's now a T at pothole but until recently a jump would have been required to exit there. The convention is that the arrows should point to the closest exit which may not be the entrance that you used. Since you didn't come in there you can't be certain that the way is clear (it may be a little sidemount entrance that you can't fir through or something) or for that matter that the arrows are correct.

Arrows on permenant lines that you didn't place are NOT a substitute for referencing the cave and knowing where you are.

In the case of a siltout as you describe if you're lucky enough to be on the line you're pretty much home free. Most often a siltout is a localized thing so you don't have to swim far to get out of it to where you can see again.

A friend of mine did a dive with us in the flooded mine that I mentioned above. He had dropped a line marker an the first dive and spotted it on the way out on the second dive.

He was in the third position and we were nearing the exit where the vis wasn't so good. He dropped down to pick up the marker without signaling us and when he came back up to where the line should have been he didn't see it. When he finally spotted it he went the wrong way. My wife who was in the second position noticed that his light beam was gone and signaled me and we immediately turned around and headed back in.

He only went a short distance before realizing that he was going he wrong way and we were right behind him by then.

Even though we turned right away it still took us a bit to catch him because he was moving. There was plenty of gas and no immediate danger but he spooked himself pretty good. I thought he was going to cry, later in the week, when he finally explained to me how he ended up turning around and heading back in. He about messed his dry suit when he looked up and the line was gone.

 

[Pez de Diablo]

Mark,

Glad everything ended well. That's a tuff one. An incorrectly placed arrow can cause serious problems, when compounded by other issues such as low vis. That's why it's so important to have an awareness to your environment, paying attention to the cave and not just the line.

But to anwser your question, I would leave the arrow and hope the next time I come across an incorrectly placed arrow, I would notice it on the way in. However, if you go back a few weeks later and the arrow is still there and pointing the wrong way, I would remove it.

Later Dennis

 

[simbrooks]

Thanks for the reply Mike, i have seen the diagrams of the midway marking and understand that the arrows are supposed to point towards the nearest exit - i am sure i will see that at Ginnie, Peacock and anywhere else we get taken - i understand those are popular for cavern and intro courses due to their location and high/no flow extremes.

I guess what i am asking, (firstly would you place your own arrows on the permenant line as well or just markers? assuming you did) how would you know if you cant see during the siltout whether this arrow is the one you should follow (even if to a tiny exit that is nearer) or not, the one you want? I can understand placing arrows and clips/cookies with your name on them so you know which are yours, but at the same time if you cant see anything you couldnt tell if it was yours (ie the way you came in). The only way i could think is having some kind of virtual 3D map of the cave in your head for you to reference to have a gut instinct - or recall if you saw such an arrow on your way in and to ignore it (but how do you know you are at that arrow) - you see what i am driving at here?

I will say that some cutaways i have seen of OW safe caverns i and many others have dived look nothing like what i recall seeing when in those caverns (thinking King Springs, Paradise and Ginnie Ballroom here, the sketch i have seen of Blue Spring (Orange City, FL) did kind of look like it) - i am an engineer and able to think in 3D on any of my projects, but these cutaways look nothing like what i can see in those caverns - hence that referencing would be pretty useless to me.

In the case of your friend, apart from signalling you, wouldnt it have been better to have run a gap/jump line off the main line - just in case - as this case proved?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I guess what i am asking, (firstly would you place your own arrows on the permenant line as well or just markers? assuming you did) how would you know if you cant see during the siltout whether this arrow is the one you should follow (even if to a tiny exit that is nearer) or not, the one you want? I can understand placing arrows and clips/cookies with your name on them so you know which are yours, but at the same time if you cant see anything you couldnt tell if it was yours (ie the way you came in). The only way i could think is having some kind of virtual 3D map of the cave in your head for you to reference to have a gut instinct - or recall if you saw such an arrow on your way in and to ignore it (but how do you know you are at that arrow) - you see what i am driving at here?

I'm not sure there's an easy answer. If you really get confused about which way is out you can place a marker, decide which direction is he right one and go that way in the hopes of recognizing something. Remember the extra gas you carry. Once I decided that was the wrong way I would place another marker and try the other direction. Now you have marked your starting point and the outside edges of your search. BTW the NSS-CDS outlined this situation in a little more detail than I am.

Also if you feel that permenant marking are confusing or there aren't any for a long distance I wouldn't hesitate to place my own. They would be nondirectional markers so as not to mess any one else up but they will serve as a reference to tell you that you came that way before. I would of course remove them on the way out. Like I said before siltouts are usually local.

A couple of additional points...

When in an unfamiliar system it doesn't hurt to reserve more gas especially in systems without flow.

It's also sometimes a good idea to limit penetration into new cave just for this reason. The less unfamiliar cave you have to search the easier it will be to find something that you recognize.

Along with referncing the cave remember that things like flow and even the silt itself can be a dead give-away.

If a siltout does happen...get a hand on the line and don't let go. Since you know which side of the line you are and were on you should know which way to go. Right? I would rather have to search up and down the line to confirm that I'm going the right way than have to run a spool around looking for the line. That could really suck in big cave.

This stuff isn't fool proof. Read some of the reports on the CDF.

In the case of your friend, apart from signalling you, wouldnt it have been better to have run a gap/jump line off the main line - just in case - as this case proved?

What my buddy should have done was signal. We would have held on the line. He only dropped down 5 or 6 feet right under the line. With the marker close enough to see I wouldn't have bothered running a line with us there holding on it. Of course when in doubt....run a line.

BTW, if he had failed to spot the line he could have had a real time finding it because the line runs through a gym size room. With the limited vis the line might lead you to think it's a tunnel but in that spot it isn't.