1st time to Cozumel need help finding a dive shop

[joewr]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you have a 60 minutes at 60 feet on air, you will load more nitrogen that if the same dive or 60 minutes at 60 feet on nitrox, right? So reduced nitrogen load = a protective effect.

Or you can use Nitrox to get a longer 'safe' bottom time and NO extra protective effect, right?

Alert Diver | DAN Medics Answer Your Questions about Dive Medicine: Spring 2011

Hi, cvchief!

At last, somebody is speaking my lingo...I was beginning to think that it was time for me to hang up my BC...not really!

I just do not understand what one would use Nitrox for if not to extend UW time whilst keeping out of the yellow/red. And doesn't anyone but my long-time scuba buddies and me use the term, "bottom time" anymore? Sheessshh...I guess I gotta spend sometime with the X-Generation!

joewr...still trying to find a renter for this space...

 

[Mossman]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you have a 60 minutes at 60 feet on air, you will load more nitrogen that if the same dive or 60 minutes at 60 feet on nitrox, right? So reduced nitrogen load = a protective effect.

Or you can use Nitrox to get a longer 'safe' bottom time and NO extra protective effect, right?

Alert Diver | DAN Medics Answer Your Questions about Dive Medicine: Spring 2011

It's the first part that's debatable. Statistically, diving nitrox on air tables has no effect on reducing incidence of DCS. Therefore, based on this fact, some divers are dead set against spending the extra money and incurring the extra risk of nitrox unless they are able to use nitrox to increase bottom time (which, depending on the profile, often requires either good air consumption or larger tanks). Others, however, and I fall within this camp, do believe that there is at least some safety benefit to using nitrox merely for the purpose of absorbing less nitrogen, statistics be damned, and also believe in the more subjective purported benefit of being less tired after the same dive on air because of reduced sub-clinical DCS.

 

[Mossman]

Most dive ops have rental equipment available and will quote it into the price if requested.

Top 5 recos: (in Alpha order),

1.) Aldora Divers - top notch dive operation, used and recommended by many here on the SB

2.) Blue Angel - fast boats with recently updated motors, very good DM's & captains, excellent on site instructor, slightly lower rates than most.

3.) BlueXTSea - "boutique" diving at it's best, a little extra cost gives you extra pampering and service. superbly managed operation.

4.) Bottom time Divers - small, one-man operation, Raul is an excellent DM, very safety minded and super good at finding critters

5.) Dive with Martin - some of the lowest rates on the island, (cash only), excellent DM's and captains, fast boats, good guys. long time island favorite.

all these dive ops will pick up and drop you off back at your hotel pier.

Your top 5. Might want to clarify that. IMO, you completely missed the best dive op on the island and I bet lots of folks would agree with me.

 

[Brules]

My wife and I are going to be in Cozumel from Nov 9-19 staying at the Palace. I would like to get a few sugestions on who to dive with in Cozumel(my wife and I just got certified but have dove the resort course multiple times). We would like to do atleast 5 two tank dives probably more. Is there a company that will bundly the gear into the price? We have mask snorkle and fins and the other saefty stuff. thanks for the help and we really look forward to relaxing in Cozumel.

Based on the OP's post - I would highly recommend Christ's Blue XTSea. You are staying at one of the most expensive places on the island, so I don't think cost will be a factor. You don't have your own gear and are both newly certified, so being your first ocean dives you are going to want an OP that will do a lot of hand holding to ensure you BOTH have a great time.

I have never dove with Christie - but I definately recommend her and her boats for you and your wife as everything I have ever heard about BXTSea is right in line with what you are needing.

 

[Christi]

Your top 5. Might want to clarify that. IMO, you completely missed the best dive op on the island and I bet lots of folks would agree with me.

And YOUR opinion of who the "best" dive op on the island is YOUR subjective opinion.

I know that you qualified your statement with "IMO" - but I still cringe when anyone says that ANY ONE dive operation is THE BEST on the island, including mine. This is entirely subjective. Everyone has their own perception of "THE BEST" - but seriously - what do you base that statement on? Have you dove with every single shop on the island under the same conditions? To say that "Shop A, B or C is excellent" with statements of why you think so is one thing, but to say that ANY shop is THE BEST is simply inaccurate.

The truth is that because there are so many shops here, there IS a perfect FIT for each individual. It's up to each individual to decide what he/she is looking for in an operation and find his/her own perfect fit. Some are looking for the cheapest deal they can find and don’t care about how the operation is run, whether the boats are owned or rented, whether the staff is paid legally or under the table, etc. Some people want a boutique service and find value in the services even with a more premium price. Some prefer steel tanks, others prefer 80’s. Some prefer large slow boats so they can spend as much time socializing as diving, others prefer the fast boat rides out with longer SI’s on the beach and more dive time – I could lit 1000 different scenarios, but it doesn’t matter – because each person is different and has different ideas of what makes the “best” for them!

I would LOVE to be able to be the perfect fit for everyone, but that is simply not realistic, and ANYONE who thinks that they are a perfect fit for everyone is just living in la-la land or are just plain arrogant. I do stand by my operation and the quality of my staff and services, pricing, etc. I know that we do an excellent job and take great pride in what we do and how we operate and the service we provide - but I also know I am not the “best” for everyone.

There are shops that provide a higher level and quality of service from the administration all the way to the boat crew - so if that is what you are referring to - then yes, there are a handful of shops that stand out and rise to that level. And then there are a few that clearly do not – nevertheless, are board favorites that are touted to be “the best” by their fans .

I LOVE that my operation has many fans that come back year after year, many multiple times every year. I am happy that we are the prefect fit for many divers – but to expect to be the right fit for everyone is simply not practical. Even then, we are not always perfect, we are all human and have good/bad days./times The best that any of us can do is to focus on what we do and do the very best we can to keep the divers that have chosen us happy which means consistently delivering the service our respective clients have come accustomed to and/or expect for the money they are paying – whether is is $65 for a two-tank dive or $90 for a two-tank dive.

Sorry for my ramble – but this subject of the subjective “BEST” operation on the island hasn’t been addressed in awhile

That's just my $200 pesos! (I'm expensive...haha)

 

[Christi]

Hi, Christie,

I guess I am just an old diver with with old lingo. To me "bottom times" always meant how long one was UW. Our typical dives off Cozumel are around 60-80 minutes, depending on depth and, so, Nitrox works very well in keeping us out of the yellow/red. I carry two dive computers (consol Genesis and wrist Suunto Stinger--yes, I am that old!) and (as an experiment) have dived Nitrox with one set to air and one set to my EAN blend. Inevitably, the air-set computer goes into the yellow or red; this is especially true on the second dive.

If my statement was misleading because it made a non-Nitrox-certed diver think that it will improve his/her air management skills, mea culpa. I sure did not mean that.

I guess, I keep wanting to hear what the reason for using Nitrox is if not avoiding DCS issues for long dives (or, in my ancient parlance, long "bottom times"). Hey...long, wonderfully scenic live boat drift dives are, for us, what Cozumel is all about.:blinking:

joewr...no messages here today...

Yes, of course I understand and use the term "bottom time" - I think the initial confusion for some was the way you used it. It did sound like you were referring to the ABILITY to get more bottom time referring to air management by diving nitrox. Believe it or not, there REALLY ARE people that are nitrox certified that still don't understand that diving nitrox will NOT help their air consumption - if they breathe a tank of air down in 35 minutes, they will also breathe a tank of nitrox down in 35 minutes.

The part I disagreeed with in your last post is that nitrox does not necessarily reduce the risk of DCS. Logically, yes, you are absorbimg less nitrogen that when diving a lower mix of O2 (ie: air). However, if you are extending your allowable bottom time because you are diving with enriched air - you are still loading more nitrogen.

I also dive with two computers. One is set to air and the other to my true mix. However, I dive nitrox to decrease the risk of DCS (not to eliminate it) - so I follow my AIR computer and clear any obligations I have on THAT computer vs. my nitrox - THAT is how you decrease the risk - not by pushing nitrox to the nitrox limits.

Most of you know that I took a severe DCS hit in late February. I ALWAYS dive nitrox - EXCEPT for that day. I had a three-tank day planned and had 3 nitrox tanks ordered for myself. I only dove ONE of my nitrox tanks that day because a customer on the boat decided that he wanted nitrox after the first dive because his computer was not giving him much bottom time for the next dive even with an extended surface interval and he also wanted to be able to do the third dive. I gave him my nitrox! Would I have gotten bent with nitrox that day? WE'll never really know - but I do believe that I absolutley would have reduced if not eliminated the risk. had I dove nitrox on those other two dives.

 

[cvchief]

It's the first part that's debatable. Statistically, diving nitrox on air tables has no effect on reducing incidence of DCS. Therefore, based on this fact, some divers are dead set against spending the extra money and incurring the extra risk of nitrox unless they are able to use nitrox to increase bottom time (which, depending on the profile, often requires either good air consumption or larger tanks). Others, however, and I fall within this camp, do believe that there is at least some safety benefit to using nitrox merely for the purpose of absorbing less nitrogen, statistics be damned, and also believe in the more subjective purported benefit of being less tired after the same dive on air because of reduced sub-clinical DCS.

As I remembered from class the less tired thing was unproven but antecdotal?

Seriously, what part am I getting wrong? How can less nitrogen loading not decrease the risk? I mean MORE nitrogen is the prime factor right? Isn't that why we have the table that say if you get more than this amount of nitrogen you are screwed? What am I missing? How could you stay down longer than air if that wasn't true?

Quoting the DAN Guy: Although nitrox can be used to lower DCS risk, it is important to understand that nitrox dives are not inherently safer than air dives. They can be made safer (from a DCS-risk perspective) if the diver uses nitrox but dives within the NDL of an air dive to the same depth. On the other hand, nitrox can also be used to increase a diver's bottom time, but this eliminates the protective effect. — Brian Harper, EMT, DMT, Alert Diver medical editor

 

[cvchief]

The part I disagreeed with in your last post is that nitrox does not necessarily reduce the risk of DCS. Logically, yes, you are absorbimg less nitrogen that when diving a lower mix of O2 (ie: air). However, if you are extending your allowable bottom time because you are diving with enriched air - you are still loading more nitrogen.

Ok, now the wheels are back on the bus... I didn't read his post as EXTENDING the bottom time; I read it as same bottom time as air for comparison.

 

[joewr]

It's the first part that's debatable. Statistically, diving nitrox on air tables has no effect on reducing incidence of DCS. Therefore, based on this fact, some divers are dead set against spending the extra money and incurring the extra risk of nitrox unless they are able to use nitrox to increase bottom time (which, depending on the profile, often requires either good air consumption or larger tanks). Others, however, and I fall within this camp, do believe that there is at least some safety benefit to using nitrox merely for the purpose of absorbing less nitrogen, statistics be damned, and also believe in the more subjective purported benefit of being less tired after the same dive on air because of reduced sub-clinical DCS.

Hi, Mossman, from the Northern Part of our Great Golden State!

I have been diving Nitrox since dirt was young and never noticed the "being less tired" effect. I have experienced, however, the "being more tired" effect as the years crept up on me--and, sometimes, they didn't even have to good taste to creep...they sprinted!

For me, the reason for using Nitrox came about with increasingly longer dives as I got more experienced. What we called "bottom times" went up and so did that bar on my dive computer that indicated nitrogen saturation. So, I was in the yellow long before my air was even close to being consumed. Now, the "fix" was easy: just pop up about 15 feet and keep on keeping on.

Then our favorite DM on Cozumel suggested Nitrox training...and it worked really well: for dives that I used to go into the yellow, I now stay in the green...this is especially true for the second dive of the day. And for live boat drift diving off Cozumel, it is wonderful...as are the dives! It is fairly common for us to be do dives there that last from 60 to 80 minutes...and Nitrox is perfect for those dives.

joewr...nothing clever to write here comes to mind just now...check in later...

 

[joewr]

Yes, of course I understand and use the term "bottom time" - I think the initial confusion for some was the way you used it. It did sound like you were referring to the ABILITY to get more bottom time referring to air management by diving nitrox. Believe it or not, there REALLY ARE people that are nitrox certified that still don't understand that diving nitrox will NOT help their air consumption - if they breathe a tank of air down in 35 minutes, they will also breathe a tank of nitrox down in 35 minutes.

The part I disagreeed with in your last post is that nitrox does not necessarily reduce the risk of DCS. Logically, yes, you are absorbimg less nitrogen that when diving a lower mix of O2 (ie: air). However, if you are extending your allowable bottom time because you are diving with enriched air - you are still loading more nitrogen.

I also dive with two computers. One is set to air and the other to my true mix. However, I dive nitrox to decrease the risk of DCS (not to eliminate it) - so I follow my AIR computer and clear any obligations I have on THAT computer vs. my nitrox - THAT is how you decrease the risk - not by pushing nitrox to the nitrox limits.

Most of you know that I took a severe DCS hit in late February. I ALWAYS dive nitrox - EXCEPT for that day. I had a three-tank day planned and had 3 nitrox tanks ordered for myself. I only dove ONE of my nitrox tanks that day because a customer on the boat decided that he wanted nitrox after the first dive because his computer was not giving him much bottom time for the next dive even with an extended surface interval and he also wanted to be able to do the third dive. I gave him my nitrox! Would I have gotten bent with nitrox that day? WE'll never really know - but I do believe that I absolutley would have reduced if not eliminated the risk. had I dove nitrox on those other two dives.

Wow, this reminds me of President Bill Clinton saying, "It depends on what the meaning of "is" is." My 9th grade English teacher, the redoubtable Miss Conde, would have given me a very low grade for lack of clarity in my writing. I need to work on that...even though I am in my dotage...

And, I am delighted that "bottom time" is not an obsolete term. Some folks seemed to have interpreted it to mean "time on the bottom" as opposed to the opposite of "surface time". So, Christie, thanks for making not feel so old!:blinking:

So, it now seems we are all on the same page: Nitrox reduces DCS possibities when "air settings" are used...reduces, but not eliminates. And, if you choose to dive Nitrox and use "EAN settings", you can, depending on your air management capability, make extended dives, but the DCS possibilities are no longer reduced. Okay? Goodness, I wish Miss Conde were here to proof this...

joewr...well, let's give this section a rest...