3-Day Open Water Certification?

[ScubaSteve1962]

Every single weekend we see divers who dive a lot (hundreds of dives - some of them quite active to the tune of a hundred a year) diving badly. It's truly incredible the stupid ideas, misunderstanding of basic concepts, illogical gear configurations and just plain poor behavior in the water they have. The longer courses give the instructor more time to try to set the student off on a path where they don't turn into one of these divers for whom "experience" gives them a license to do things poorly or incorrectly.

Perhaps it's a local/regional thing, but the very experienced bad diver is the thing that I think most instructors are trying to avoid (they're the ones with the hubris and lack of knowledge that leads to bad days and sad stories).

I don't teach as often as a lot of the other people who've chimed in, but I've never seen someone "get it" as they'd have to in order to satisfy me in 3 days. That's why I don't believe it's a good idea. If there are scuba savants, I haven't come across one; most people learn with time and repetition.

Nothing wrong with the way you teach your class, but if you don't teach your class in a way that they should have it in three days then naturally you wouldn't see that. no offense intended.

 

[mathauck0814]

Nothing wrong with the way you teach your class, but if you don't teach your class in a way that they should have it in three days then naturally you wouldn't see that. no offense intended.

None taken. I've seen the output from the three day class. All I've learned is that there are instructors who don't give a damn about the product. Maybe you're the one savant that everyone points to as the exception?

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

I think the 6-8 week class would make a difference. I think Jim Lapenta has mentioned elsewhere that his students work on and practice buoyancy and propulsion skills under his supervision. In my PADI buoyancy class I had to demonstrate the skills during 2 dives (the first dive was intro as part of AOW). While I did OK I had to practice on my own without an instructor helping me. I wish PADI would include higher skill proficiency in buoyancy and propulsion as part of the Master diver cert that goes beyond the skills learned in the specialty. They could also create a specialty for diver skills proficiency that would fit in with the current PADI business model.

i once had one guy who was an PPB instructor comment that I seemed over weighted, and he was going show me how to get properly weight, well I'm open to suggestions. I ended up with the same amount of weight that I started with. If anything during my OW dives I was under weighted. I just got the PPB book, went to the pool and practiced what I had read. I'm not saying this will work for everyone, but it worked for me.

---------- Post added August 7th, 2014 at 08:00 PM ----------

None taken. I've seen the output from the three day class. All I've learned is that there are instructors who don't give a damn about the product. Maybe you're the one savant that everyone points to as the exception?

My instructor wouldn't sign off on my referral until I did my 10 min float test which ended up being 20 mins and without a wet suit, I sink like a rock. He won't allow you to take the class unless you've had the OW material at least a month and completed all the KB test. He doesn't pass everyone that comes through. Just like any other occupation, there are a lot of instructors who do give a damn. Just because they run an 8 week course doesn't mean they do. For me, I'm always taking some sort of training that's last from 3 to 5 days. so I'm used to having to focus. And know that the only way to really grasp the information is to use it.

 

[AdivingBel]

If you want exposure, time to learn and practice your skills, and quality classroom time, then a 3 day cert class would be very disappointing.

The indvidual's goal may be to dive with a reasonable expectation of safety. They have the rest of their life to gain exposure and practice their skills. What's wrong with that? There is a difference between enjoying a hobby and perfecting a skill. Considering the thousands of divers that have taken the 3-day OW course and the relatively few diving related accidents/fatalities that are recorded each year, the current training regime seems to meeting those expectations. At the same time it is exposing more and more individuals to the sport. It may be ugly looking underwater at times, but it would seem to be a valid trade off for the individual and the industry. If professional golfers were the only ones allowed to play, there wouldn't be very many golf courses.

What you're asserting is that a longer course is unnecessary because the sooner you get in the water and start diving, the better diver you will be. That is only true if one ignores the inherent risks involved.

I don't think he said unnecessary. Just that it's not necessarily required. As far as safety, see above.

Three day cert courses have one goal...to certify as many as possible, as quickly as possible. That's beyond dispute.

You say that like it's a bad thing. It may benefit the individual as well as the instuctor/instructing institution.

I would also reconsider the urge to argue with Jim and Bob about dive training...I think they've been doing this a while.

IMO, Steve wasn't arguing about their training expertise, but more about the individuals expectations and goals, and that one size doesn't fit all. On those counts he should argue all he wants. I haven't seen anyone question Jim's or Bob's skills or the quality of their educational offerings. In fact I think they are held in the highest regard and are a wonderful option for the individual if they so desire.

BTW, on the arguing front. In the short time I've been on Scubaboard, if it wasn't for the "arguing" it would mostly be Mossman's food porn and *crickets* Happy diving.

 

[EFX]

....At the same time it is exposing more and more individuals to the sport. It may be ugly looking underwater at times, but it would seem to be a valid trade off for the individual and the industry.....

And let's not forget who we are talking about here. Probably all of us who are responding in this thread are highly motivated and committed divers. Certainly the Pros are. We enjoy improving our skills, learning new things and taking on a challenge. For the vast majority of vacation divers who take these whirlwind pull-em-in push-em-out courses they're satisfied because all they want to do is get on that boat and have fun. They look at diving as just another pasttime like going to a movie or playing miniture golf. Do you remember my OW friend who laughed off my suggestion for getting AOW? When I asked if he would come with me to the quarry and dive without a DM in a full 7mm wet suit with hood and gloves down to 82 ft where the water temperature was 44 degrees (at <30 ft it was 72 degrees), he looked at me as if I had two heads. You see, that's not fun. He and others like him are not going to stand, let alone pay, for any more training even it could save their life because it's not a hobby.

 

[boulderjohn]

People reading my posts may have thought I was supporting 3-day courses. I am not. I myself was certified in 3-days, and it was not for several years that I learned what was supposed to happen in a certification course and realized how much had been skipped. I did neither the required swim nor the float. I only did one equipment setup in confined water. We did no skin diving. I did no compass navigation under water. I was the receiver in an OOA emergency in open water, but not the donor. I honestly can't remember clearly enough to fully grasp how many skills were skipped in order to get it all done in so little time.

On the other hand, I don't think it takes weeks to make a competent OW diver. In fact, I don't think it takes much more than the three days, especially if the total time for those three days is spread out over more time so that students have a little time to rest in between sessions and absorb their learning.

So why did I choose the 3-day course I took? The same reason as a lot of people--the same reason as has been cited above. I did not think it should take more than that, and I was planning nothing more than the opportunity to do a few dives every couple of years in a nice, calm, warm water resort area. If you had suggested I go down to one of our local cold, murky reservoirs for some diving, I would have laughed at the very thought of it. I never would have dreamed that those nice, calm, warm water resort area dives would have gotten me so hooked that I am where I am today. Did I come out of that class, abbreviated as it was, with the skills of an experienced diver? Certainly not, but I came out with enough skill to enjoy my first dive trip safely a few months later and set out on the path that took me here.

I mentioned two friends whom I certified last fall. They got that certification for one purpose only--we were planning a trip to Australia, and I talked them into diving the Great Barrier Reef while there. They made it clear that warm water resort diving was all they wanted. They had a good time on that trip and so flew to Florida while I was there so that they could do their AOW with me. They had fun with that, too. We went to Australia as planned. That went well for them. Today they have all their own gear. They have the first of several cool (~60° F) dive trips planned, and they have another dedicated dive trip planned. A year ago they would have scoffed at the merest hint that they might be doing this now.

 

[drbill]

Unfortunately this is not that unusual in today's world. Back in the 60s when I was certified we had a three week course with meetings four times a week. Today instruction is very basic and once you achieve your OW cert, it is wise to progress through AOW and preferably Rescue. My cert class covered everything up through Rescue although back then there was less gear to become knowledgeable about so it focused more on actual diving.

 

[supergaijin]

The 3 day course reflects the fact that new divers are not all dying after ..... a 3 day course. A 4 day course is better, a 5 day course even better (all things being the same).

I personally believe that OW divers should not stop there, but also learn rescue skills. There is indeed a program for that. If divers continue their OW training with a half dowen dives, expand their experiences with some more dives, then learn some rescue skills, then it more or less equals the 3-4 week classes of old.

More or less.

 

[mathauck0814]

The 3 day course reflects the fact that new divers are not all dying after ..... a 3 day course. A 4 day course is better, a 5 day course even better (all things being the same).

I'd like to pivot on the success metric. So the DIVER isn't getting themselves killed after a 3 day course, but I've seen enough coral being kicked off and sponges walked on and sea fans flattened to say unequivocally that the death and destruction being caused by the budget course divers is substantial. I guess that's an acceptable part of things. Who cares what shape we leave the local reef in so long as the budget crowd gets to tick off their bucket list *shrug*.

 

[BRT]

No it does not mean all of them can't. But it does mean that some are out there who should not be. The ones who can't set up their own gear, determine how much weight they actually need on their own, can't plan a dive without a DM or instructors assistance. Those actually pose a risk to other divers and when one of them gets hurt or worse it has an effect on the entire community. From PR standpoint, business standpoint, and certainly from an insurance liability standpoint for the pro's who have to suffer for the actions of the puppy mill get em get em out schools of OW training.

I agree with you on the new divers abilities, Jim, but you must admit that when new divers die it is more often a heart attack than anything else. And watching Dandy Don's posts I think more experienced divers die than novices.