3-Day Open Water Certification?

[supergaijin]

Who cares what shape we leave the local reef in so long as the budget crowd gets to tick off their bucket list *shrug*.

I would add that the dive centers also carry a responsibility to assess divers' abilities before taking them to sensitive sites. Beginner divers should be diving in easy conditions 'similar to those in which they were trained'. Unfortunately many dive centers will take the easy money.

 

[FinnMom]

What do you think was left out? I have seen just as many lousy NAUI divers/instructors as any other agency. It is not the agency that certifies inept divers it is the inept instructor. I had a DM student that I failed out of a PADI DM course because he came to us from another facility with poor skills and no understanding of the academics. Well he went to Santo Domingo and came back less that a week later a NAUI instructor. I have it on solid sources that he paid $500 for the card with no class work and a few ow dives. The solid source I have was a experienced PADI instr and he paid something like $200 at the same time just to see if they would sell him a card. They did. There can be quality issues anywhere,any agency. All comes down to how skilled the instructor is teaching a course..

We all know what something for nothing is usually worth , don't we.

As much as hot air?
It was a very nice gesture. If the new guy's training was 100% excellent a review and chance to dive in a new place with an experienced local is still an excellent bit of luck.

Everyone always says the same thing about anecdotal evidence contradicting a generally-held point of view. I have taken some fabulous photos with a $12 Kodak and some lousy ones with my Nikon. Doesn't change the fact that one camera is of much higher quality than the other.

If nothing else is unfortunate about 3-days zero to hero, it's that having the time to repeat and review already-covered (mastered) skills and concepts is just gold for helping to learn. Review is a very power tool for teaching new information (I also teach intro-level computer programming) and it trains your brain to find the material within its "little grey cells" with greater speed an accuracy. Taking things slow is also gold for building up confidence in the water.

 

[boulderjohn]

I agree with you on the new divers abilities, Jim, but you must admit that when new divers die it is more often a heart attack than anything else. And watching Dandy Don's posts I think more experienced divers die than novices.

Although DAN has not released a fatality report in a number of years, the older ones are still online. You can see the statistics for yourself and not have to guess. They always have a section in which they break down the accidents by the number of years the diver had been diving, to the degree to which they know. In the section that describes each accident specifically, they describe the certification level and amount of experience of the diver, as far as they know. I have examined those in detail a number of times, and in past years I have reported precise statistics in threads like this.

New divers are not a big percentage of the total by any means. In fact, the percentage is (to me at least) surprisingly small. There are usually as many tech divers as new divers among the deceased. Among the divers with more years since certification, however, you will find a fairly large percentage that were considered inexperienced. They had done very few dives since their certification some years before. It is likely their training was not fresh in their minds.

When you read through the reports, you will be hard pressed to find many cases that can be attributed to lack of training. The most important cases that can be attributed to training problems generally follow a scenario of a diver running out of air without a buddy nearby, sprinting to the surface, and suffering an embolism, most likely from holding the breath. There aren't that many of those cases, but they are the ones that hearken back to training issues. Those statistics are the main reason PADI recently changed its OW course to put more emphasis on buddy diving skills and gas management. I recently went through a training session conducted by a representative from a scuba insurance company, and that session emphasized the same thing--having an appropriate reaction to an OOA situation is a critical factor in avoiding dive injuries.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have also spent a great deal of time looking into non medical fatalities. A more than significant number involved new divers with a lack of rescue skills. Skills that only a couple agencies now include in the OW class. Others wait until rescue diver, a course which many never take by the way, to introduce divers to them.

Of the incidents I looked at divers were unable to assist their buddy at the surface in dropping their weights, one did not know how to support a buddy at the surface and she drowned three feet from the surface as he was trying to hold her up by her octo hose. Others were given the buddy talk in class but it was never enforced in the pool or on checkouts. They were led single file which illustrates to someone who doesn't know any better that the buddy system and proper position for it is optional.

Those are basic training issues that cost divers their lives. They thought it was ok to get a little ahead of their buddy on the swim in. Until they turned around and the buddy was gone. Only to be found later on the bottom.

Could I run through all the skills in one day? Theoretically yes. But how well would they be done and how long would they be remembered by the student? How much would I have to push them to fight through the fatigue, cold, and mental overload to get them to do that? I don't train new divers to dive in warm, clear water while being led around on trust me dives by DM's. I train divers to dive in our local conditions.

That means cooler to cold water, low vis, maybe some current, no DM to lead them around, plan the dive, set up their gear, or make sure their air is on. Under SEI standards they also have to get their snorkeling and skin diving skills down before I can put them on SCUBA. They also have to be taught rescue skills of panicked diver at the surface, non responsive diver from depth, rescue tow while stripping gear, and supporting a diver at the surface and helping them get positive. They also have to be taught tables and emergency deco procedures using the Navy Air Deco tables. Extending your safety stop by a few minutes is not emergency deco.

I can't take them into open water unless they are able to do skills midwater and neutral. The training site for SEI HQ does not have any shallow platforms for skills. They use hang bars at 15, 20, and 30 ft made from PVC pipe and suspended mid water in roughly 50 feet of water. Skills are done with maybe a hand or elbow on the bar to steady themselves.

Clearing a mask successfully once or even twice is not mastery of it. I know that some do this. My own OW instructor told me if he demo'd it and I repeated it while kneeling in front of him in 4 ft of water and it was like him looking in a mirror we were done with that and could move on to something else. Clearing it while swimming and buddy breathing in the pool, or while trying to don the rest of your gear as you fall into the deep end on a bailout exercise or gear exchange while sharing air may be. I have them remove and replace up to a dozen times per pool session. While doing other things at the same time.

A full gear exchange, station breathing, and rescue skills are all part of the OW class.

I don't do weight checks with students after the first pool session. They do them with their buddy before each session. I just show them how and then it is their responsibility. I've seen OW students at checkouts go up to the instructor, ask for their weights, have the instructor hand some to them and say here this should be enough. And the student is ok with that.

On checkouts my students are expected to do checks and adjust their weights between dives on their own.

You can't teach that kind of course in three days. I won't. Been asked to offer an abbreviated class and leave out the rescue skills because "I'll be diving with a DM and he'll keep me safe." Then I have to explain that I can't do that and on top of that people have died thinking that following the DM and not having their own plan was a good idea.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have also spent a great deal of time looking into non medical fatalities. A more than significant number involved new divers with a lack of rescue skills. Skills that only a couple agencies now include in the OW class. Others wait until rescue diver, a course which many never take by the way, to introduce divers to them.

Having read all of the recent DAN reports thoroughly, I was unable to recall any incidents like that. I just took the time to re-read every one of the descriptions of every one of the fatalities in the last two publish DAN reports, and I did not see a single case that was even close to what you describe here. I may have missed one. If you go back and check, please supply the incident number so I can check it out.

Of the incidents I looked at divers were unable to assist their buddy at the surface in dropping their weights, one did not know how to support a buddy at the surface and she drowned three feet from the surface as he was trying to hold her up by her octo hose.

What agencies do not include theses basic skills in their OW program? They are a part of the PADI program for sure.

Clearing a mask successfully once or even twice is not mastery of it. I know that some do this.

Wow! Which ones are those? All the agencies that are members of the RSTC require students to demonstrate a well-performed mask clearing a minimum of 8 times, including at least 3 in which the mask is completely removed.

 

[AdivingBel]

I'd like to pivot on the success metric. So the DIVER isn't getting themselves killed after a 3 day course, but I've seen enough coral being kicked off and sponges walked on and sea fans flattened to say unequivocally that the death and destruction being caused by the budget course divers is substantial. I guess that's an acceptable part of things. Who cares what shape we leave the local reef in so long as the budget crowd gets to tick off their bucket list *shrug*.

I too hate to see the reef abused. I was recently on a boat with the dive family from hell. Mother, father, son, and daughter all decked out in their name brand matching gear. The father regaled us with their multi-week, multi-class, LDS, training exploits. How they were no "resort divers." They hit the reef like a ton of bricks, dragging gauges and octos. The dad literally stood on the reef. Son was busy prying up I don't know what with his BFK, while sister was laying on the reef getting the perfect shot with her point-and-shoot. It was appalling. On the same boat, I was insta-buddied with a young lady on her third/fourth dive after being "resort certified." She had some buoyancy issues, but for the most part she stayed far enough off the reef that it wasn't a problem. Back on the boat after our 1st dive, she was almost in tears because she lost control once and kicked the reef. I didn't even see her do it.

More training, advanced training, better training are all good things; but the "resort course" brings a lot of people to the sport that otherwise might not participate and is not necessarily indicative of poor divers. So much of being a safe, non-destructive diver has to do with the individuals attitude. One size does not fit all and there are many different ways to achieve that goal.

BTW, while poor divers do damage the reef, our reef systems have many bigger issues including environmental run-off, over fishing, long term climate cycles, etc.. Not disagreeing with you, just offering perspective.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I did not take my research from the DAN reports. The incidents I looked at all came from reports here in the accidents and incidents forums. I then took the time to contact the posters. I had a some eyewitnesses not on here contact me personally via phone. DAN does not have anywhere near all the accidents that occur. Only the ones that someone actually reports to them. Many are not reported. That fact came from a discussion with Dan Orr who is also a personal friend. There was no supporting a diver at the surface in my PADI OW class. Only a tired diver tow. Certainly no in water practice of ditching a buddy's weights.
The octo hose incident was reported on here and happened at Dutch Springs. The missing buddy was two incidents reported here. One in Lauderdale by the Sea involving a couple that lived less than ten miles from me.
I have not read a DAN Report recently because I know how incomplete they are and how only a few of the incidents that they report on have any real follow up research done. Not for lack of wanting to.
They simply do not have the manpower and rely on witness statements, news reports, and on rare occasions when a person reporting an incident supplies them - police reports. If an incident is not directly reported to them it's more than likely they have not heard of it. There is no requirement by any agency, institution, or other body to file a report with them. They rely on people like you, me, and other divers to file a report. Otherwise they don't hear of it. Unless it makes the news in a big way. Like the Spivey fiasco.

---------- Post added August 9th, 2014 at 05:58 PM ----------

I too hate to see the reef abused. I was recently on a boat with the dive family from hell. Mother, father, son, and daughter all decked out in their name brand matching gear. The father regaled us with their multi-week, multi-class, LDS, training exploits. How they were no "resort divers." They hit the reef like a ton of bricks, dragging gauges and octos. The dad literally stood on the reef. Son was busy prying up I don't know what with his BFK, while sister was laying on the reef getting the perfect shot with her point-and-shoot. It was appalling. On the same boat, I was insta-buddied with a young lady on her third/fourth dive after being "resort certified." She had some buoyancy issues, but for the most part she stayed far enough off the reef that it wasn't a problem. Back on the boat after our 1st dive, she was almost in tears because she lost control once and kicked the reef. I didn't even see her do it.

More training, advanced training, better training are all good things; but the "resort course" brings a lot of people to the sport that otherwise might not participate and is not necessarily indicative of poor divers. So much of being a safe, non-destructive diver has to do with the individuals attitude. One size does not fit all and there are many different ways to achieve that goal.

BTW, while poor divers do damage the reef, our reef systems have many bigger issues including environmental run-off, over fishing, long term climate cycles, etc.. Not disagreeing with you, just offering perspective.

I hope you said something to the family from hell. I would have.

 

[TN-Steve]

I might have some perspective on this... simply because I went through OW certification twice, with about 30+ years between them.

The first time was a course offered, I think, by the local Y. It was LOTS of book material, lots of emphasis on working tables (Navy), knowing the hardware. I remember a whole section of the book (Think it was "The New Science of Skin and SCUBA Diving") showing the difference between different types of regulators, upstream, downstream, balanced vs unbalanced, pluses and minuses of each. I think we had 4 classroom sessions, each several hours long. The pool sessions (of which there were many) were almost 'military' in focus, I don't want to say that the instructors tried to kill us, but there was a lot of 'pulling masks off, shutting off air' type stuff. I recall doing skills in a blacked out mask. There was also an exercise where you dove to the bottom, doffed your gear, swam up, dove back down and re-donned your gear. We cleared masks upright, horizontal, swimming on our sides. And we did all of it again and again.

I do know that all those skills were really burned into the brain, so that response was automatic.

Never really did anymore after that due to extraneous circumstances, until I went to Florida Keys for a reunion earlier this year. A cousin took me on an easy dive in the gulf, and I was hooked again. I realized how much equipment had changed, most of it wasn't even mentioned (or existent) when I first did it.

I got trained by a local instructor, and it surprised me how 'light' on content the book and class session (1) was. It also really seemed that the agency (PADI) really tried to minimize any real mention of the dangers. When I did it the first time, there was a lot of "If you up and do this... you can die, and it won't be a pretty death". I feel like the current OW / AOW training is designed to make it as approachable and easy to learn as possible. I came out of it with a number of 'do these things' but no real appreciation for the "why" behind the guidance. As a professional trainer myself (computer stuff) I found it to be a good light overview, but not any depth to it.

The water skills were a lot easier too, pretty much everything at own pace, it was a walk in the park for me. I've had the advantage of always being comfortable in the water. It seems that the skills that were drilled into me long ago still were there, so it was fun. I also saw where if somebody was coming in with zero experience and no basic comfort level in the water they would be ok in a nice controlled dive in very mild conditions, but could be in a lot of trouble if things went sideways somehow.

I've since hooked up with some divers that are helping me improve my skills, and of course, scubaboard is a font of information.

Just my .02 (or possibly a bit more)

Steve

 

[DevonDiver]

Minimum course standards for the PADI OW course are 5x confined water sessions and 4x open water dives. PADI standards allow all 5x confined water to be done in day. Up to 3x open water dives a day.

The key word is "minimum".

Performance standards also govern course duration. These are the skill-specific standards; in which the student has to attain a level of 'mastery' in each skill before progression/certification. The definition of 'mastery' is very open to interpretation.

Could a student achieve mastery of the syllabus in the minimum course standards? Yes

Can every student achieve mastery of the syllabus in the minimum course standards? No

What happens, all too frequently, when dive centers promote minimum course standards, is that the interpretation of mastery for performance standards gets down-graded sufficiently to allow all students to graduate without extension or delay.

In short, very low-standard courses, where everyone graduates in the minimum course duration, regardless of their actual competence, confidence and comfort on scuba underwater.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

And let's not forget who we are talking about here. Probably all of us who are responding in this thread are highly motivated and committed divers. Certainly the Pros are. We enjoy improving our skills, learning new things and taking on a challenge. For the vast majority of vacation divers who take these whirlwind pull-em-in push-em-out courses they're satisfied because all they want to do is get on that boat and have fun. They look at diving as just another pasttime like going to a movie or playing miniture golf. Do you remember my OW friend who laughed off my suggestion for getting AOW? When I asked if he would come with me to the quarry and dive without a DM in a full 7mm wet suit with hood and gloves down to 82 ft where the water temperature was 44 degrees (at <30 ft it was 72 degrees), he looked at me as if I had two heads. You see, that's not fun. He and others like him are not going to stand, let alone pay, for any more training even it could save their life because it's not a hobby.

As seriously as I take diving, it is a past time/hobby. For me in the U.S. 1 to 2 people a day die and at least 10 are severely burned in my occupation. In the metro area at least 1 person dies in a traffic accident a day. In diving 90 people die a year and most of these are probably do to health reasons. My chances of something happening to me are less when diving. throw in the safety factor that's already embedded in me from having to think about it every day and it less. I don't take it seriously because I can die from it, I take it seriously because I want to be a better diver. For me it has to be fun and stay fun, it's not an adrenaline rush, I don't have to see how deep I can just to be going. I will go to the quarry's but I'm not going down to 82 feet 44 degrees. ("don't dive in conditions that you are not comfortable with"). Some people need/want more training and it's out there for them, for those of us that don't, that's our choice. Although I haven't been in a while, I love to just go to a pool and go over my skills alone, I don't do this because it could save my life, I do it because running through air, bouncing all over the place is no fun. Now unless prepared and trained, I would never dive alone. (although when diving with an insta-buddy I feel like I'm alone).

Minimum course standards for the PADI OW course are 5x confined water sessions and 4x open water dives. PADI standards allow all 5x confined water to be done in day. Up to 3x open water dives a day.

The key word is "minimum".

Performance standards also govern course duration. These are the skill-specific standards; in which the student has to attain a level of 'mastery' in each skill before progression/certification. The definition of 'mastery' is very open to interpretation.

Could a student achieve mastery of the syllabus in the minimum course standards? Yes

Can every student achieve mastery of the syllabus in the minimum course standards? No

What happens, all too frequently, when dive centers promote minimum course standards, is that the interpretation of mastery for performance standards gets down-graded sufficiently to allow all students to graduate without extension or delay.

In short, very low-standard courses, where everyone graduates in the minimum course duration, regardless of their actual competence, confidence and comfort on scuba underwater.

Why couldn't this be the same for an 8 week course, if the instructor doesn't care?