A call to PADI certified divers and poll about 2001 MSD changes.

[connellc]

I don't think it that big of a deal. The fact is that diving means different things to different people. If someone is interested in underwater photography and takes that as one specialty, that doesn't make them any less of a diver. That is what their interest is, which for them could make them a MSD because they are mastering things they want to learn for their own diving experience. Now, for people that are taking easy specialties as a means to get the certification, well, they'll never be a "master" SD because they have already missed the point. Bottom line you still have to have 50 dives, 5 specialities, $$$, ect. It still takes time in the water and dedication.

 

[matt_unique]

Matt, who did you reply to? Scottri and myself i believe are the only people to suggest they are PADI (in the post, didnt check profiles) and mention our concerns of this rating, with or without the recent changes. Both views and most are continuing to say the same as the previous threads you started about MSD (in particular PADI), the "cert" has no value and is not really something worth aiming at as it is just money going down the drain for a piece of plastic that says nothing, for the same price you can get a reg serviced (labour) or about a dozen air fills, half a dozen nitrox fills or countless other things, possibly the best part of a boat ride for a couple of dives too. I would prefer the dives or fills for diving than a card that says nothing, had no actual training to get beyond the pre-req's.

Can you follow simple instructions in the spirit of a public forum? There are two other threads available to discuss your opinions, as stupid as I think they are, about the value of PADI and/or the MSD. I don't care what you think of PADI or the MSD.

I do care about PADI trained divers who may be motivated and interested in contacting PADI to elevate the standards for the MSD.

--Matt

 

[jviehe]

Yes, PADI is a business, so this is probably money related. But I think you are over estimating the point of the MSD. I think it is more geared toward being a personal benchmark for divers, not something that shows you have skill. Most divers do not dive after initial certification or whatever cruise ship they got off of. So, for them someone with 50 dives is a mater diver. For padi, someone with 50 dives and 5 specialties, and AOW, is a master diver. To us techies however, that comes with 1000 dives and trimix cert or whatever. This is PADI folks, and I love em, but I dont think they create advanced divers at the OW level.

 

[Genesis]

I don't think the MSD rating is worth anything at all.

I am (more or less permanently) barred from getting EITHER PADIs or SSIs! Why? Because the SSI shop around here refused to allow me to take Rescue in a BP+W setup. I thus went to a PADI shop for that class.

Both SSI and PADI require that your training be through them in all the prereqs to qualify.

I meet the dive experience requirement for BOTH ratings, and meet the "specialty" requirements for BOTH ratings, but can have NEITHER, because I was such a horrible "Benedict Arnold" that I took a class from PADI instead of SSI - and as such neither wants my money for the card.

 

[simbrooks]

Matt,

i can follow instructions (public forum or elsewhere) about this thread and many others (including reading and trying to partake in the debates that you also started).

You wrote "I ask my fellow PADI certified divers to submit constructive feedback to PADI about this change." and "I do care about PADI trained divers who may be motivated and interested in contacting PADI to elevate the standards for the MSD". I am a "fellow PADI diver" therefore surely my opinion and feedback is of the utmost importance to you (as you are shunning the other agencies in this thread), as i am in your target audience for PADI and MSD questions. Go ahead and dont care for my opinions, that is of no consequence to me.

I am motivated and interested in seeing something change with regard to this cert - it isnt going to happen, but anyway. I would say scrap the cert or make it have some meaning by putting in some dive time, specifying certain pre-req's that are diving related (like in AOW they put helpful things like deep and navigation - in the right kind of direction). IF they suggested putting other pre-reqs like the full specialization of those two, with say night, and possibly other diving and very useful specializations then that might help, then they actually taught you something for the cert, i think that would get a lot of people off you back about your flogging of dead horses ("flogging" and "dead horse" are what makes Matt not particularly "unique", but the words are getting synonymous with your user ID). BTW i would take the MSD IF these changes were made. IS that constructive enough for you?

 

[matt_unique]

Yes, PADI is a business, so this is probably money related. But I think you are over estimating the point of the MSD. I think it is more geared toward being a personal benchmark for divers, not something that shows you have skill. Most divers do not dive after initial certification or whatever cruise ship they got off of. So, for them someone with 50 dives is a mater diver. For padi, someone with 50 dives and 5 specialties, and AOW, is a master diver. To us techies however, that comes with 1000 dives and trimix cert or whatever. This is PADI folks, and I love em, but I dont think they create advanced divers at the OW level.

I have my MSD among other certifications including tech certifications through TDI. I agree with you completely. If you have the time and interest, read the the other threads on the matter of the MSD. They address just what you are referring to.

--Matt

 

[matt_unique]

Matt,

i can follow instructions (public forum or elsewhere) about this thread and many others (including reading and trying to partake in the debates that you also started).

You wrote "I ask my fellow PADI certified divers to submit constructive feedback to PADI about this change." and "I do care about PADI trained divers who may be motivated and interested in contacting PADI to elevate the standards for the MSD". I am a "fellow PADI diver" therefore surely my opinion and feedback is of the utmost importance to you (as you are shunning the other agencies in this thread), as i am in your target audience for PADI and MSD questions. Go ahead and dont care for my opinions, that is of no consequence to me.

I am motivated and interested in seeing something change with regard to this cert - it isnt going to happen, but anyway. I would say scrap the cert or make it have some meaning by putting in some dive time, specifying certain pre-req's that are diving related (like in AOW they put helpful things like deep and navigation - in the right kind of direction). IF they suggested putting other pre-reqs like the full specialization of those two, with say night, and possibly other diving and very useful specializations then that might help, then they actually taught you something for the cert, i think that would get a lot of people off you back about your flogging of dead horses ("flogging" and "dead horse" are what makes Matt not particularly "unique", but the words are getting synonymous with your user ID). BTW i would take the MSD IF these changes were made. IS that constructive enough for you?

You quoted my request perfectly above, "I ask my fellow PADI certified divers to submit constructive feedback to PADI about this change." Yet somehow then decided to resurrect the content of a PREVIOUS thread as part of this one. Do you recognize and understand how the intent/request of this thread is different from the previous threads on the matter of MSD?

I think the MSD should require 500 logged dives to include cold water experience/gear, dive only specialties, and a final exam that includes written and demonstrated underwater skills.

Once again, the intent of my post, my request, were for those who were motivated and interested, to email PADI with suggestions that would make the MSD more valuable to you as a diver. There is ANOTHER thread for those that want to repeat the words "the MSD is meaningless, PADI s*cks, here's why XYZ agency is better, etc." Time and place for all things....

--Matt

 

[ScubaTexan]

If, in your opinion, the Master Scuba Diver rating is meaningless, what difference does it make what goes into it then?

 

[simbrooks]

Matt,

i was probably out of line to direct anything about flogging and dead horses at you, however i do think if you read my 3rd paragraph about giving the MSD some actual dives and direction/instruction, that is constructive criticism. You say yourself "I think the MSD should require 500 logged dives to include cold water experience/gear, dive only specialties, and a final exam that includes written and demonstrated underwater skills", therefore we agree with your standpoint on that and would sign any kind of petition to try to improve the PADI (or any other agency) MSD course and make it mean something more than a benchmark. I have not tried other courses with other agencies yet, however as with all things i personally am trying to decide what is for the best for me, whoever it is with (3 different instructors and all from different agencies - including one PADI) to see what is most beneficial - takes a lot of time to go thru some of this stuff with them.

I am not suggesting that PADI sucks (i dont think there is a great difference between each agency requirements when it comes to the specialities themselves). But in this time and place i am agreeing with you about the need for change, for the better in ways you and i, as well as others have suggested by putting meat into the cert in terms of dive count required (100-500 is a good range as a min), dives to complete the cert (inc pre-req specialities (deep, nav, night, nitrox, ppb, wreck/cavern - penetration tecniques, cold (maybe ice), drysuit, rescue) that mean something show more of a rounded diving experience), maybe i would suggest 5/6 of those listed and to actually do some dives to show you still have the ability to be a good diver under those circumstances, not just have dove in the past and have collected some cards.

I really am not belittling the cert that you paid for, i think it has gone downhill slightly in one way (non-diving specialities included), increased in others (slightly by the 50 dive min), but its a long way short of being fully meaningful.

Hope that clears it up.

 

[simbrooks]

PS. i had contemplated doing this cert as i didnt want to go pro, until i found that it doesnt increase my diving experience or instruction, again i state, i would take it IF it had the kind of substance that i suggest above, or something similar.