A Little Worried....

[voop]

Pony bottles seem to be a hot topic around here, but I've never seen a valid reason how an extra 19 or 30 Cu Ft of air and completely redundant regulator could be bad. Maybe it's just a macho thing.

The rest of the arguments against using it are mostly equipment configuration issues. For example, if you sling it in front instead of behind you (several companies make clips to hold it), turning it on or off or giving it to another diver becomes trivial. Also, although it does throw your weighting off, it only does this for a few minutes until you figure out how much you're off by and shift your weights around as needed.

Terry

I agree with much of what you say. Just call your pony bottle a slung "stage bottle" and you'll be fine around these waters

The reason why I usually frown on ponies is, that people tend to ignore them: fill them once, never verify them, fit a crappy reg on it and then not do propper gas-planning, assuming that "I have my pony, so breathing the backgas down to 2 bar is OK"....that's no good, IMO. It's even dangerous, because a "pony" may be percieved as a security blanket and other good diving pratices go out the window. It's easy to say "I won't do that", but many many divers still do.....

Yes, I do carry a "slung" bottle (or more...) when I dive, in particular if it'll be a deco dive. I keep the reg on my "slung" bottle in as good as condition as my primaries. And, indeed, they're the same high-performing, expensive regs. If it can safe my life to spend 200 Eur extra per stage-reg...well....

If it's just a "recreational" dive with no to moderate deco obligation, I keep EANx32 in a single "slung" bottle. I calculate my gas-plan to be done with backgas only. I also calculate from which point of the dive I would be able to switch to the "slung" bottle and have enough gas to finish the dive. I then dive the plan, which means that I would be able to complete the dive entirely on backgas, with a suitable reserve. And the volume in the pony still intact.

For more serious deco, the very same bottle is perfect for EANx85-100 for the 6m and above stops.

The point to all this is, that I am much in favor of redundant gas supply. However it takes training to know how to use it correctly, and it takes a lot of care and consideration to not let the "pony" be a false security. And it is more gear to verify, maintain and be familiar with. Furthermore, not very many OW divers are familiar with gas-planning. Quick, how many knew what "SAC" meant right out of OW-class? How many knew what YOUR SAC was right out of OW class? Not many, I bet.....unless gas-planning is taught and praticed, it's difficult to quantify the "security" offered by a pony or any other redundant source of breathing gas.

Of course, the ultimate "pony setup" is twin tanks with isolator

 

[Web Monkey]

I agree with much of what you say. Just call your pony bottle a slung "stage bottle" and you'll be fine around these waters

See, I knew I was doing something wrong.

The reason why I usually frown on ponies is, that people tend to ignore them: fill them once, never verify them, fit a crappy reg on it and then not do propper gas-planning, assuming that "I have my pony, so breathing the backgas down to 2 bar is OK"....that's no good, IMO. It's even dangerous, because a "pony" may be percieved as a security blanket and other good diving pratices go out the window. It's easy to say "I won't do that", but many many divers still do.....

Some people are just scary. You can't save them from themselves. I know a woman who dives without any kind of backup gas, and breathes her tank down to literally nothing on a regular basis. You can't change people, all you can do is try to learn what not to do

Yes, I do carry a "slung" bottle (or more...) when I dive, in particular if it'll be a deco dive. I keep the reg on my "slung" bottle in as good as condition as my primaries. And, indeed, they're the same high-performing, expensive regs. If it can safe my life to spend 200 Eur extra per stage-reg...well....

They both get serviced a couple of times a year. Nobody wants to find out there's a problem with their backup equipment when it's an emergency.

Terry

The point to all this is, that I am much in favor of redundant gas supply. However it takes training to know how to use it correctly, and it takes a lot of care and consideration to not let the "pony" be a false security. And it is more gear to verify, maintain and be familiar with. Furthermore, not very many OW divers are familiar with gas-planning. Quick, how many knew what "SAC" meant right out of OW-class?

That's the number of seconds it takes to hoover all the air out of the tank

How many knew what YOUR SAC was right out of OW class? Not many, I bet.....unless gas-planning is taught and praticed, it's difficult to quantify the "security" offered by a pony or any other redundant source of breathing gas.

Part of my deep class was to do a very slow, controlled ascent from 100', including a stop at 50' and a stop at 15' on a 30 Cu Ft pony, and calculate the SAC and the remaining air. 15 Cu Ft would have been enough, but nott by much, and probably not in an actual emergency.

 

[TwoTanks]

There is more safety having a pony, (sorry... slung stage bottle) but then there is more safety having two backup lights, two lift bags, three reels, two computers, a bottom timer, backup tables, emergency flares, a submersible EPIRB and a partridge in a pear tree.
The more advanced the diving the more gear you need, but to go to 30' and do the oooh and aaaah at the fish you will enjoy it more if you have less gear on. You don't see OW instructors and divemasters wearing extra redundant safety gear, and they are responsible* for you too, not just themselves.
You will like the dives better if the stuff you don't need isn't hanging in your way. You should dive with only what you need to feel safe. If a pony makes you feel better then bring it, but don't use it as an excuse to run your tank dry or some other nonsense. At your level it should be just a backup tool not a "stage bottle".
Before you start using stage bottles or reels or anything like that you should get some training in how to use them properly.
As you gain experience you will probably go on to more advanced dives where you will need more redundancy or your comfort level will improve to the point where you won't want it for regular dives.
I wouldn't give SAC rates another thought until you have at least a hundred dives.

 

[Desa]

I think we all agree that we should manage that additional risk by keeping our skills current and never get complacent

Don't make to big a deal about it. I have been diving since 1977. I, my wife, my 16 year old son and 13 year old daughter enjoy the sport tremendously. I understand the risk, but if I thought it was "realy dangerous" I wouldn't let the kids participate. (OK, not the wife either).

About the pony. Yes I use a pony but only if one of the following conditions are present: Diving over 70', diving solo, or diving in cold water. Those are conditions that raise the bar so to speak about the potential for problems.

Using your won analogy of the dangers of driving, compare the type of diving you should be doing as a novice to the type of driving on a straight road with little or no traffic. There is always some risk, but its not the same as driving on the freeway with all the nuts.......

Just my 2psi...... Sonny

PS: before anyone slams me about diving solo, I am a rescue diver in a small county. While it doesn't happen often, occasionally I or one of the other two divers will find ourselves dropping in with out immediate backup. If you have never had to try and save someone's child, you probably wouldn't understand.........bash away..........

 

[voop]

There is more safety having a pony, (sorry... slung stage bottle) but then there is more safety having two backup lights, two lift bags, three reels, two computers, a bottom timer, backup tables, emergency flares, a submersible EPIRB and a partridge in a pear tree.
The more advanced the diving the more gear you need, but to go to 30' and do the oooh and aaaah at the fish you will enjoy it more if you have less gear on. You don't see OW instructors and divemasters wearing extra redundant safety gear, and they are responsible* for you too, not just themselves.

Not always entirely true. In some parts of the world (such as where I live) dive guides are required to have "two complete assemblies able to provide breathing gas from the divers supply" (or some such similar legalize...). That amounts to, at least, a big tank with a H or Y valve and two complete 1- and 2-stages.

So yes, around here, you do see OW instructors and divemasters wearing extra gear....

You will like the dives better if the stuff you don't need isn't hanging in your way. You should dive with only what you need to feel safe. If a pony makes you feel better then bring it, but don't use it as an excuse to run your tank dry or some other nonsense. At your level it should be just a backup tool not a "stage bottle".

I agree with the above. However part of the experience is to experiment and find a way in which you can carry the gear needed in a non-cumbersome way. It is possible to slung a stage-bottle with backup gas in a non-cumbersome way.

Before you start using stage bottles or reels or anything like that you should get some training in how to use them properly.
As you gain experience you will probably go on to more advanced dives where you will need more redundancy or your comfort level will improve to the point where you won't want it for regular dives.
I wouldn't give SAC rates another thought until you have at least a hundred dives.

I disagree here, though. In order to make a good dive plan, one needs to know "how far one can go with the gas on your back". And a good dive-plan is needed from day-1. I agree that it would be a great idea to get OW training from an instructor, who teaches basic gas-planning, though.....

 

[Green_Manelishi]

Of course, I realize that by going thru the lessons learned from all of these I become a better diver.

Wrong. You become a better diver by diving. By reading the lessons for life you simply educate your mind about specific things to (not) do. It's your body that you need to educate and the only way to do that, like most physically active sports, is to frequently, and with purpose, engage in the activity. If you are "afraid" then perhaps diving is not the sport for you.

 

[DORSETBOY]

sure it doesnt do any harm to have redundancy but like 'Twotanks' says, you can have a redundancy for everything, bu if you're diving shallow, within ndls it becomes a little excessive. On the other hand if you're planning deco then it would be essential to have a high degree of redundancy in your equipment.