A question about the devils eye/ear entrances

[DA Aquamaster]

Really? You've never seen a pilot hand the controls to someone who has never flown before and let them fly it for a bit without actually landing the plane or taking off???? I've seen pilots do that.

As a pilot, I've often let non pilots try their hand at flying the aircraft. In smooth air at altitude under near ideal conditions, flying a plane is pretty easy.

Even without an auto pilot on a smooth day you can take the average single engine Cessna, establish heading and altitude, trim the aircraft, then take your hands off and just sit there watching the scenery go by (as long as you keep track of where you are).

Short of playing in a thunderstorm, flying very badly on instruments or doing something stupid and pulling the wings off the plane, accidents don't happen at altitude, they happen close to the ground where precision and knowing what you are doing becomes important. That's why you never see a pilot let a totally inexperienced non pilot make a landing on their own. I've even had very good student pilots suddenly try to kill me on landing - it's amazing how fast a little mistake can become fatal close to the ground in an airplane.

Going into an over head is not analogous to taking the controls at altitude, it's the equivalent of making a "landing" and you need to know what you are doing or it could very quickly turn fatal.

---------- Post added November 19th, 2012 at 03:40 PM ----------

Actually I think I want to take the cavern class after looking at whats his names website...

400 bucks seems awfully steep though.

Funerals are what $7000 minimum?

Besides, if you really don't feel it was worth it, he's given you an out.

At a minimum he's saving your life.

 

[SWAMPY459]

---------- Post added November 19th, 2012 at 03:40 PM ----------

Funerals are what $7000 minimum?

Besides, if you really don't feel it was worth it, he's given you an out.

At a minimum he's saving your life.[/QUOTE]

No, read closer, he reneged on his offer when I said I was interested.

I found another for 275 and one for 200 but I'm going to research the instructors a bit.

If he wanted to split the difference maybe and just do 200 whether I like it or not, I might do that depending on what someone who has actually taken his class has to say about him.

Personally I don't see why having an idea for a dive, and asking for information to decide whether or not to the dive has sparked such a frenzy of off topic replies.

 

[mathauck0814]

400 bucks seems awfully steep though.

I've said this elsewhere, but it applies equally here. How you feel about what something costs is an indication of your priorities, not an indication of the actual value of something. You mention you have a boat. I'd reckon that boat is more than $400. You need it to navigate your waterways so it's worth it. It seems you perceive proper training and safety to be a lower priority than other things you could do with $400.

Diving costs money, and to a large extent you do get what you pay for. Some of us have prioritized the value of not putting our friends and family through the expense and grief that comes along with a body recovery and funeral preparations at or above $400, I suppose.

 

[w ripley]

I consider the Eye & the Ear two of the most difficult places to enter/exit a cave. I can think of harder places for sure, but there is an awful lot going on at Ginnie, primarily due to high flow at the Ear & lots of places you don't want to go into - unexpectedly - on your way to the Eye. Knowing the system as I do, the circuit being questioned in this thread is not one I would want to do as my 1st cave dive.

My nephew, who is an OW technical diver, just asked about his cave training. So, I recently spent some time listing cave instructors who, IMO, would give him the tools he really needs to be successful in caves, and Rich Courtney was pretty high on that list.

As others have said, we're only concerned about helping you stay safe. Meet with Rich. He's a good man to know in cave country and one excellent cave diver.

FWIW, I took cave training just to learn how to run a reel in off-shore wrecks. Like you, I really didn't think there would be much in caves to peek my interest. That was well over a decade ago with many hundreds of hours. I even went to a rebreather so my cave dives could last longer. It pretty much hits all of us that way. It's one of the things cave divers have in common.

 

[TracyN]

A very dangerous standards violation by any agency. I would have tried to identify this instructor & then reported them to their agency. It is instructors like this that give OW students the "green light" to go into overhead environments with impunity/ without training.

Next time I will try to elicit more information. I figured I was just an average Joe diver whom they probably wouldn't listen to anyway and tell me to mind my own business

 

[flots am]

Personally I don't see why having an idea for a dive, and asking for information to decide whether or not to the dive has sparked such a frenzy of off topic replies.

This is all for purely selfish reasons: caves that accumulate too many fatalities tend to become closed for diving.

From my perspective, you're all grown up and if you want to go bumper surfing on the interstate on a skateboard, or do a 500' dive on air, that's just fine with me. It's your life. We just don't want to see you get killed in a popular location and ruin a good dive spot for everybody else.

Also, they're not off topic. You're asking if anybody has any tips on the best way to stick your arm into a wood chipper and we're telling you that it's a really bad idea.

flots.

 

[lamont]

I asked about how the topography was and if it was safe like the ballroom at Ginnie.

ballroom isn't terribly safe. if you poke your head in just a bit further you can get blown up and stuck in a chimney there, which would be another hazard if you try to this "swimthrough" that you think is perfectly safe and doesn't take any training...

still think you should just make sure edd is around and go for it, we simply love reading his reports when he saves stupid divers from themselves...

troll...

 

[JamesK]

Next time I will try to elicit more information. I figured I was just an average Joe diver whom they probably wouldn't listen to anyway and tell me to mind my own business

They might have told you just that. However reporting them to Ginnie management would've been a good idea.

I would've walked up introduced myself ,asked his name and if he was an instructor. I would've been told him what he was doing was wrong he was endangering the life of the students. Then I would have reported him.

 

[50Fathom]

400 bucks seems awfully steep though.

 

[Superlyte27]

---------- Post added November 19th, 2012 at 03:40 PM ----------

Funerals are what $7000 minimum?

Besides, if you really don't feel it was worth it, he's given you an out.

At a minimum he's saving your life.

No, read closer, he reneged on his offer when I said I was interested.

I found another for 275 and one for 200 but I'm going to research the instructors a bit.

If he wanted to split the difference maybe and just do 200 whether I like it or not, I might do that depending on what someone who has actually taken his class has to say about him.

Personally I don't see why having an idea for a dive, and asking for information to decide whether or not to the dive has sparked such a frenzy of off topic replies.[/QUOTE]

I didn't reneg. I'm waiting to see if you can show some common sense here. Me teaching you a class that will only give you more false security hasn't helped anyone. I've never had a student die after my training, and I'm really not wanting to start now. I'm questioning whether you'd be that first candidate.

As for price, you get what you pay for. Check Rich Courtney's, Jim Wyatts, Bird's, Jill Heinerth, Larry Green's, etc etc etc. My pricing is in line with theirs. But, I'm sure you can get a PADI Cavern Class for $150.00 bucks. I actually know people teaching it for that price.

Price isn't the issue here. Common sense and maturity are the issues. I'm waiting to see if you have any.