A questions about "bouncing"

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Texass

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I have heard that it is dangerous to surface or get shallow and then descend again. Is it?

Most of my dives are on lakes. I see alot of people surface to get their bearings and then continue their dive. When I was on a live-aboard there was a very strong current near the surface and some divers went back down to swim to the boat. The DM said he'd rather pick them up in the Zodiak since resubmerging was "a good way to take a hit".

Thanks
 
Well, there's a fair amount of research that basically says reverse dive profiles are no more dangerous than forward profiles. Given that, I would say that the scenario you descibed is probably OK -- especially if you're talking recreational depths. Would I do it? Yup -- used to do it all the time. Would I let others do it if I had an insurance company to answer to? Depends -- maybe not.

Take care.

Mike
 
Texass
I think it depends on the diver and depths of the dive. I do fairly conservative dives so I try
to avoid saw tooth dives.
mike
 
There are two issues here, the issue of reverse profile and it's implications, and the issue of the saw-dive, which is different.

Let's start with reverse profile:
The problem with reverse profile, is mostly when diving with tables. The tables are based on mathematical models that were developed according to several assumptions, that had to be assumed in order to make a table that is workable. One of the assumptions was that you alwais dive the deeper dive first, than the shalower, never deeper than the last dive. The reason is within the model, It simply is different if you do it the otherway, and than we'd have to use several tables, that would make buisness a lot more confusing. That is most of it, but not all. There are people that also claim that in reverse profile the absorption of niterogen is greater. I don't like this theory, but it exists. When diving with computers, it depends on the kind of computer. Generaly, no computer manufacturer encourages reverse profile, for obviouse reasons. Still, when using newer computer, aspecialy those that use RGBM algorithms (i.e the newer SUUNTO computer, from the Vyper generation and on).

Saw profile:
When diving according to tables, you plan the dive according to the deepest deapth. So if most of the dive you were shalower, becouse you went up and down several times, logically, your body will not absorb more niterogen than it would if you did an exact square dive. If you use a computer, that is not an issu at all, so mostly, it dosen't matter if you don't do it to rapidly and keep a slow ascent rate. But...

There is another issue that get's here. If you happen to have already micro bubbles formed in you blood, which in themselves are not dangerouse usualy (and are, infact a very common thing. research showed, I belive, that about 100% of dives to 30 meters for longer than 5 minuets coused micro bubbles), it get's tricier. When you bounce up and down in the dive, you couse the bubble to grow and shrink. This couses it to grow in mol (number of molecules), that, aventualy, will couse it to grow in size when ascending. This of course can be a problem, aspecialy if you had another dive earlier, that was deep, or it's the end of a deep dive and you'r bouncing in the shallow water (very not recommended!). This is why we have to ascend very slowly. It was found that when ascending at 30 F/M the bubbles are kept at bay.

To conclude-If you do a shalow dive, with no prior dive, it wouldn't matter much (there's no risk of decompression under 6 meters anyway). If you do a deep dive and bounce a bit at the bottom, not to radicaly, it's also ok. If you do a dive, and bounce a lot, but keep a slow ascent rate in the bounces (I belive that descent rate in such a case is also of importance, but I havn't found anything about it), you probobly will be ok, but personnaly, I wouldn't do it. Than, if you did a long deep dive, than went to do a shallow dive, bounced a lot, surfaced a bit, didn't notice how fast you do it, you get into quite a risky position.
So- If you dive, and surface to check your position once or twice, keep a slow ascent rate, it's ok, better than getting lost. If you surface after a dive, to discover you'r far from the boat, than descent to 2-3 meters to swim, it's alo probobly ok.
 
I think it was in Rodale's this past year (but I really can't remember) that they debunked a bunch of myths. The "bounce", the "sea-saw" and the "reverse profile" dives were all cleared as being safe. That is... IF you use a computer to track everything. I have had to do several bounces when I am working with students, and instructors do this regularly when practicing controlled emergency ascents with students. Just make sure you really go with the NEW ascent rate of 30 fpm instead of 60 fpm!!!

:tease:
 
Hello,

Well the USN dive manual states you have about 5 mins after surfacing to get in the chamber for deco. Guess the same would apply from surfacing to get your bearings.

As for 'reverse' profiles modern research states they are not as dangerous as first thought but there's some restrictions.

Ed
 
Blacknet-
What you are sayingabout the five minuets is a danegerouse thing. If you think you are n risk of decompresion sickness you should not perform "wet" recompression. To perform such a thing you need a VAST knowledge of decompression theory, and than, again, you will not have a magical staff with you, that you will have in a HBO. If you surface during the dive to take your location, it's ok, if you don't do it to rapidly and keep a slow ascent rate. Things should be taken in proportion.

As for the probelmatics of revers profile, the problems is due to the dive table. Som computer a dive-table based, and thus, shouldn't be used for reverse profile as well. Read my former message about Saw-profile, and reverese-profile.

Netdoc- Instructors take risks way more than ordinary divers. It's a fact. It's also a fact that most cases of DCS I know of, happened to instructors.
 
Texass,

I will not comment on the see-saw and reverse profile issues since the others have covered it. However, are you certain the DM meant a DCS "hit"? Most boats handling live boat drift diving or picking up divers who are not close to the boat prefer them to surface and signal. That is because if you resubmerge, they should not move the boat in order to avoid an accident. When you are submerged the only clue that a boat captain has to your location are your bubbles. And they do not tell him how deep you are.

A depth of 7 feet is very dangerous! That is where you can get chewed up by a prop. So, usually what one does is surface, signal and wait on the surface...or swim on the surface toward the boat. If you choose to resubmerge, the boat should remain moored or anchored with the engine off until the all divers have come aboard.

If you are not diving with a shop and are doing your own boat driving, you really need to discuss the protocol and agree on it so no accidents happen.

In addition, if you are diving where there are drift dives in progress...for example, the outside wall of Molokini...you need to be cautious as you ascend. You need to listen for motors, look up as you go up and control your buoyancy carefully so you can stop if a boat is going to pass over you. I use Molokini as a specific example, because that is exactly what happened to us once! We were diving with Dive Shop A and a boat from Dive Shop B passed right over us as we were ascending...even though our boat had its flag up and was clearly waiting for divers.

Sorry if this diverted you from the topic...


Joewr
 
I'm still a bit confused, though. Maybe I should paint a more descriptive picture.

This was at the Flower Gardens. There was a VERY strong current above 20'. We were getting whipped around doing our safety stop on the moor line. We had already done 3 dives between 100-125' that day. There were 3 hour SI's in between each dive. I don't know what their max depth was on that particular dive, but I'm sure it was in the 100' range. They would have had to have descended to at least 30' to get to a lighter current. BTW the boat was a live-aboard and on a moor line - we weren't moving until the next day.
 
Hello,

In strong currents try a jon line at the safety stops.

Ed
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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