A somewhat sad conversation last night

[Hoomi]

No, he was very clear. He thought we were all jerks and dive Nazis.

Ve haf vays of making you dive right!

I think part of the problem is that tone is not conveyed through written conversations. How a statement is perceived is very often dependent on the inflection used by the speaker, and this is completely lacking on our forums. In person, the same statement can sound like friendly advice, while if we project an authoritarian perception onto it in written form, it will sound like superior condescension.

Having stuck around here for a while, I've learned that some of the people who, at first, struck me as demeaning and dismissive, ended up being the ones who were most helpful and knowledgable. In most cases, my perception of them was determined by how I read them, and not really by how they intended their posts to come across.

 

[TSandM]

The good news, as you mentioned, is that the ******* instructor is no longer teaching Fundamentals.​

Well, Harry, maybe GUE is doing something right?

There is something of a "generation gap" in DIR diving . . . in the days of the rec.scuba battles, I think the GUE folks tended to take a more stiff-necked tone. Today's GUE instructors don't seem to be like that (and from discussions with recent -- last few years -- GUE instructor trainees, they confirm my impression) and I think they are really making an effort to make sure that their students don't pick that up from them.

DD, you make a good point about people who take up the system and find it good becoming insufferable. My good friend NW Grateful Diver has a 30-day gag rule for Fundies graduates . . . but sometimes I think it should be more like a couple of years

BTW, I think everybody knows I'm a GUE supporter in a big way. But my two favorite cave diving buddies (other than my husband) are not GUE divers at all!

 

[Roko]

I must be doing somethign wrong, then. I'm a new GUE-F graduate, and I still dive with my non-GUE buddies. Although I've mentioned the positives of the course to them, and why I like the GUE system, I'm not preaching to them and trying to change them. I also don't think I'm God's gift to the diving world. Maybe I just crossed the "I-Know-It-All" stage into the "I-Don't-Know-It-All" stage well before I took Fundies.

I think the key take-away is that "DIR" divers who are assholes, would still be assholes if "DIR" never existed. Some (wo)men just want to watch the world burn. This goes for non-"DIR" agencies as well...

I dive for fun. Agency/Shop/Training politics ruins the fun. My best advice, don't dive with those who are jerks. -- There are way more great divers who are a blast to dive with and hand out on an SI with, regardless of their agency/training/etc.

 

[farsidefan1]

My impression has been that the DIR crowd, like all crowds is a mixed bag. My first impression a couple of years ago was, well, horrible. As this is now a pg rated site I can't say what my initial impressions were. Then as I got more experience I noted how helpful some DIR advocates could be without The pompous condescending attitude. Over the last couple of yrs I find that the jerks are FAR outnumbered by helpful, insightful advocates. Hopefully the needle keeps moving in that direction. As to those who feel it is just a matter of the posters deemed "jerks" by some of us because we were unable to see their nonverbal signals of "sweetness" -NOT! They are jerks. Fortunately they are few, unfortunately they tend to post a lot. Those are my impressions. Funny that the most helpful and considerate of the DIR group started this thread. She has probably never offended anyone in her life. Thanks again for your help on several occasions.The same can be said for most of the rest of the group.

 

[TSandM]

She has probably never offended anyone in her life. ​

You should go back and read some of the threads I started when I first discovered DIR diving . . . One of them, you can't, because it ended up getting deleted!

I will confess to being an elitist snob, though, as a result of my GUE training.








I hate silt . . .

 

[lv2dive]

You should go back and read some of the threads I started when I first discovered DIR diving . . . One of them, you can't, because it ended up getting deleted!

Oh c'mon... ya know we can't leave that one alone! If you won't post a link, then the date range, at least?!?!?

 

[Thalassamania]

Our little group of GUE divers has a standing set of dives on Wednesday night. A bunch of us get together, and anybody who wants to join us is invited to do so. We get a fair number of newer divers, who enjoy the opportunity to go out with some experienced and solid folks. One of our recent companions is a young man who moved to Seattle rather recently. He is, as we all understand and empathize with, dive-mad, and has been getting out about every other day to dive somewhere, with someone.

He went to dinner with us last night. And he told me, over dinner, that before he moved to Seattle, he'd had a very negative impression of DIR divers -- which he said he had largely gotten off SCUBABOARD. He also said that, of all the people he's dived with since he's moved up here, our group is the nicest one . . . and the MOST FUN to dive with.

I thought it was incredibly sad that he had gotten such a bad impression of DIR people from this board. And I wanted to offer his impression, now that he's MET us, so that other newer divers who have gotten the same impression might know that at least one person has concluded he was wrong.

If you recall, back in '06, I posted:

...

Another approach (the one I use for those days that I can't "use the force") is to glue a small (1/2 x 1 inch) neoprene nose block in the nose pocket of my mask. Mask squeeze helps since it seals my nose against the block, and when I exhale through my nose my ears first clear and then my mask equalizes.

You and I had a very reasonable and rational exchange involving maintaining positive pressure in the pharynx, but ... I got flames from the DIR side that stated that this was not DIR, this was an equipment solution to a skill problem, how gluing something in a mask that might come loose was not a good idea, how no one should ever modify gear themselves, etc., etc., etc.

I hope that you do not mind fielding another question. Something came up in discussion on another board that raised a question issue that I though might have some light shed upon it here.

In imitation of my old oval Swim Master Wide View mask I glue a small (perhaps ½” x 1&#8221 neoprene pad in the nose pocket of my current masks. My nostrils are completely, but gently, occluded by this pad. If I exhale gently, air goes by, but if I exhale more forcefully (or push my nose … well actually the nose pocket of my mask) against anything (forearm, instrument housing, back of my hand, etc.) I can close off my nostrils and equalize. I learned this using old style oval masks and commercial gear (Band Masks and Helmets). This lets me stay ahead of the need to clear by keeping slight positive pressure in my pharynx (during exhilaration) whenever I descent.

I suggested that this might help some folks who are task loaded with suit inflator, wing inflator, a scooter, etc., and find that they’ve “run out of hands.” The question was raised as to if it “was DIR” to “modify” your mask in this manner.

Any thoughts that I might share?

It certainly isn't DIR to do this. You are adding extra equipment to make up for something that could be solved with skill and practice.

What happens if the pad comes unstuck? What about your backup mask? What about your team's backup masks? What happens if you give a team member a backup mask with this pad added when they are not expecting it?

If you are worried about trying to clear your ears while doing other tasks, there are other ways of doing it other than by using the valsalva maneuver.

HTH
J

and it went on, until finally resolved by Peter:

From Peter Steinhoff:

I can't see any problems with that modification. I sometimes use a similar technique because I let my mask slide up a bit so that the nose pocket is close to my nostrils and I can to some extent equalize the same way.

One has to remember that equalizing is different for different divers. Some can do it by just wiggling their jaws and some have to use a proper valsalva or other technique. With your modification one would just have added another way of doing it in addition to the rest - another tool in the toolbox so to speak.

To keep in mind though is that we in general strive for ambidextrous operation of our equipment, even if we have a default like light in the left hand and scooter in the right. A proficient diver should be capable of riding a scooter both left and right handed, be able to use left or right hand for operating the wing, holding the primary light, reels etc. As long as the mask "modification" is not used as an excuse to NOT develop these ambidextrous skills there are no problems. To use a favorite buzz word in the dir community we could say that we still need to be "thinking divers".

feel free to post my response wherever you see fit.

I was appalled at the vehemence, venom and lack of actual cognition demonstrated by some of the responses. There were similar unthinking responses to question about dry suit material:

When diving a 7mil uncompressed neoprene suit, the suit material is part of your insulation, as it compresses you add air to compensate for that compression, just as you would add air to compensate for the compression of any gas based (and aren’t the all) insulation. If you're smart enough to have gotten one made of GN231N, then it compresses less than does other gas-based insulations. This is nothing more than urban myth.

On the other hand, the big plus to DIR is standardization. My divers have always dove the way I taught/told them to. I’ve always stayed open to changes and innovations, but have never moved rapidly to incorporate them. When you dive a “team approach,” a marginally non-optimum, but standardized, solution to an issue is in most cases preferable to an “everybody do their own thing” approach.

The problem with DIR is that when a new idea or suggestion comes up some folks seem to get disoriented and run about like a chicken with its head cut off. Permit me to harken back to our recent discussion of the length of BP/W hoses that got into my suggestion that a ½ by 1 inch piece of neoprene glued in the nose pocket of your mask could help, which was met by cries of derision until I posted Peter’s note to me that said is was OK and the DIR dives should be thinking divers. There’s not been a word in response here or on DIREXPLORERS since I put his post up. I would have no hesitation at taking a group of thinking DIR divers out to do complex research tasks just as I do divers trained to AAUS standards, but I’d have to screen carefully to be damn sure that the unimaginative, auto-authoritarians, were left behind, because IMHO, they’re more dangerous than a PADI/NAUI/SSI/SDI/XYZ two day wonder (who at least knows that he or she don’t know poo).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If you recall, back in '06, I posted:

You and I had a very reasonable and rational exchange involving maintaining positive pressure in the pharynx, but ... I got flames from the DIR side that stated that this was not DIR, this was an equipment solution to a skill problem, how gluing something in a mask that might come loose was not a good idea, how no one should ever modify gear themselves, etc., etc., etc. I was appalled at the vehemence, venom and lack of actual cognition demonstrated by some of the responses.

... most folks like that burn out after a few years, quit diving, and move on to becoming "the best" at some other recreational activity. They're worth arguing with, if you enjoy that sort of thing ... but not worth taking seriously.

I run into many people like that who are vehemently anti-DIR ... and just as insufferable as the people they like to complain about ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

I started diving in the summer of '05, and took Fundies that fall.

 

[Thalassamania]

Here is a post that sums up my thoughts about the whole matter (back in Dec of 2008):

“What is DWW?” is an interesting thought exercise. What is DIR is rather clear … there’s a rule book (more or less) written by a cadre of authorities that is not hard to interpret. It is relatively rigid, dogmatic, inflexible and (if the proof is in the pudding) works real well. DIR draws flak from many elements in the diving industry for many different reasons, but the primary ones are, I think, economic, ego and past leadership personality problems.

I’ll leave the “ego” objections and past leadership problem to the realm of, “common knowledge.”

Some of the manufacturers don’t like DIR because their products are disparaged or they see it as too much investment in producing a diver per dollar of gear sales. Some of the agencies don’t like it because they follow the manufacturer’s lead, or because they are too far down their chosen path to turn back and they find it more cost effective to denigrate DIR than to redo their materials and retrain their people.

So now GUE has come through with a ten pool, ten O/W dive, 60 hour, DIR based entry-level program. Will the divers it produces be “better” than those coming out of current 18 hour, 4 dive recreational programs? Of course they will. Will the new GUE diver be “better” than someone who received conventional training that included some suite of additional courses (OW, Buoyancy, AOW, Rescue, Specialties?) I think the answer is still yes … but no quite as emphatically. I suspect that we‘d see two rather distinct distributions (measuring “betterness” on the abscissa and “numbers” on the ordinate):

1. A broad curve that describes "most" divers, those with non-DIR training that would include everything from a 18 hour course up through a 100 hour course.
2. The DIR course graduates (narrower curve) should have a high “betterness” score with a very low standard deviation,

The more conventional group would (again … I suspect) have a lower mean with a much higher standard deviation. It is these “tails” that are of interest to me. The “tail” on the down side (shown in red) indicate divers that are distinctly inferior to the DIR group, and the “tail” on the right side (green) indicates the few divers that are more capable (more better?) than the DIR group.

My interest in diver training rests within that upside tail. My experience is that most divers with about 100 hours of training and 14 to 16 open water dives fall into that tail. But that’s just what one would expect a positive relationship between the “Betterness Score” and amount of effectively provided training (as measured by hours and number of dives).

Continued