A somewhat sad conversation last night

[gypsyjim]

Cost is a REAL issue, and I have raised it elsewhere in the past.

It is my personal conviction that GUE will show its greatest power in the influence that GUE-trained divers who teach for OTHER agencies will have on their students.

Amen.

In any field, it pays to cross differing cultures and skill sets. Scuba diving in general is still an evolving sport, and from my experience the GUE approach to training has a lot to offer all divers, even if "DIR" is not their goal, or their favorite flavor of the day. I believe you are correct, in that an awareness of the value of the skills learned here are gradually spreading throughout the sport

 

[Adobo]

"Now, $1000 is still a lot of money for just about all people. But for me, I would rather have used regs, used tanks, jetfins bought through ebay, rental backplate, etc. and save the money for quality training be it fundies or something else."

That's a nice sentiment but it doesn't reflect my experience with DIR oriented divers - some of whom show up in expensive drysuits, $500 BT's, canlights and scooters to do the same dives I'm doing with my St72, $10 jets, Gekko and 50 year old doublehose. I've never met an equipment cheap DIR diver yet. The peer pressure is too great and if you say it isn't I'll call B-----.

Its true that the GUE style of diving does have a lot of expensive accessories. But the base equipment to get started is no more expensive and in fact, can be less expensive than the equipment you are asked to own/rent in open water. Some specifics:

• backplate and wing - on the whole, these cost about the same as the average BC from scubapro, seaquest, zeagle, etc. Further, I would argue that the resale value of a name brand backplate and wing from halcyon, oxycheq and DSS is higher than the resale of the BCs I listed prior.
• computer - a decent bottom timer/depth gauge is sufficient even for dives to 45meters/150ft and is certainly fine for 2.5 hour cave dives. Whereas every time I walked into a dive shop having a "sale", there were always new divers being shown multi gas, air integrated, wireless computers that cost well over $500 and in some cases, over a $1000.
• fins - i have 3 pairs of jet fins. One pair in Vancouver, one pair in Florida and one pair in California. Total cost for all three? $150. To be fair, the springs straps which I added as an option cost about an extra $60/pair of fins. How much does the dive shop hit divers for to get a pair of those fandangled Apollo Bio-Fins? You know, the #1 rated split fins in Scuba diving magazine?
• snorkel - my first one which btw, I haven't seen in 6 years, cost about $50. I have't checked the standards but I don't think a snorkel is mentioned in any of the GUE classes.

The other stuff seems generic to me across any kind of diving. We all need regs, we all need exposure suits.

You are right that the accessories (can lights and scooters) are expensive. But that has nothing to do with Fundies. You can take fundies without a can light. And if you are having trouble carrying the cost of a used can light for use in Fundies, you certainly should take a closer look at the costs involved in technical and cave diving. Also, you certainly cannot bring a scooter to any GUE class except maybe Tech 3, Cave 3 or DPV 1/2.

I guess the question to anyone taking this class is, is it about learning some new dive skills or is it about fitting in with the other kids?

For me, I took money away (and still do) from my family to pay for training, equipment and destinations to engage in what is primarily, a selfish endeavor, and it turns out I'm not bad at it. There are things I would like to do in the future like advanced nitrox/deco procedures and recreational trimix but I have to weigh the cost of training vs the return vs the cost to my family. It's a big balancing act.

I propose that we set aside GUE/UTD/DIR for a moment because really, regardless of which agency is providing the class, these issues exist. Anyone who has a family is doing the same. Whenever I spend a dollar somewhere, it is a dollar that I do not have for my family. I don't care if you live paycheck to paycheck or if you are a millionaire. If you spend it somewhere else, it is money away from your family.

Now consider another potential cost a diver's family. Imagine if a diver is injured or even killed doing a dive. What is the cost to that diver's family then? If that diver had mediocre training or worse, no training, was whatever money was saved really worth it for that diver's family?

I replied to your post, not to try to talk you into Fundies. Take Fundies, don't take Fundies, makes no difference to me. But I did want to make sure it was clear, this notion of upwards of $4000 for Fundies is far fetched. For the most part, most divers who have a local instructor will be able to take the class and get it done for $1000 or less. And the tuition for you Canada left coasters is $700 from Alan. No idea what Guy Shockey charges.

 

[gsk3]

That's a nice sentiment but it doesn't reflect my experience with DIR oriented divers - some of whom show up in expensive drysuits, $500 BT's, canlights and scooters to do the same dives I'm doing with my St72, $10 jets, Gekko and 50 year old doublehose. I've never met an equipment cheap DIR diver yet. The peer pressure is too great and if you say it isn't I'll call B-----.

My gear, with prices paid as best I recall:
-DiveRite backplate (used, $65)
-Halcyon Eclipse 40 wing (used, $350) - I took Fundies in a Oxycheq Mach V, which I still use as my singles wing
-DiveRite regs (purchased new as a singles package for $550; have since added a few first and second stages to the stable which I generally purchase for less than $80 apiece, used)
-JetFins ($30 off eBay) with Piranha spring straps ($20)
-Took Fundies in a 7mm BodyGlove wetsuit off the clearance rack, $100 or so
-Have since upgraded to a drysuit (DUI CLX450 with all the trimmings, $700-800 used)
-Undergarments were from Ron on eBay. There was a sizing issue so it only cost me $65.
-For really cold diving, I bought a new Santi BZ400. That was murder on the budget, but it was the only way to do the dives I wanted to this year. $550.
-Viking dryglove rings $100 or so
-Showa orange gloves, $3-4 apiece
-1m DSS SMB, $35 used
-6ft Piranha SMB, $30 or so. I hate it even after replacing the plastic ring with a metal one, and will likely buy something nicer soon.
-Piranha backup lights, $25 apiece (these were the 180 lumen heads in the 220 bodies, so they were on clearance)
-21W Salvo HID, $500 used
-Tec2g, $150 or so on eBay

Etc. etc. This is my setup through Tech 1. For Fundies, it was even cheaper.

In general, my approach has been to buy used and upgrade when I think it is worth the money to. The minimalism of DIR really helps with gear purchases if you can avoid paying MSRP and buying Halcyon everything. Places I think are worth splurging are:
-Exposure protection (drysuits *must* fit and vent well)
-SMBs
-Backup lights (the Piranha ones are fine but keep cutting the cave line and don't sit quite right.

 

[Hepcat62]

I agree with everything Adobo said. I do, however, think that there's still a significant cost issue with GUE training right now, tied directly to its availability.

For the most part, most divers who have a local instructor will be able to take the class and get it done for $1000 or less.

This is certainly true. I do, however, think it's easy for those of us fortunate enough to live in an area with a local instructor to remember that we're in a pretty significant minority. Adobo and I live in an area where we are practically overflowing with GUE instructors - we have THREE local fundies instructors, one of which is a T1 instructor. We've also got a nice collection of T2/C2+ divers who are generally perfectly happy to dive with new folks, providing mentoring and ego checks.

Travel is not cheap, travelling with dive gear is generally worse. There's a lot of USA, and not a lot of GUE instructors (relatively speaking). Having a local instructor also substantially changes the "perceived risk" associated with the investment in the course - it's easy for me to go do a checkout dive (or hell, just a fun dive) with Beto, Susan, or Rob. If I had to spend $1000+ in airfare to do it, the idea of a provisional pass being something I end up actually resolving suddenly seems a lot less likely.

Ultimately, it's an impossible problem to solve. A sudden explosion in GUE instructors would pretty much HAVE to be accompanied by some compromise in the certification process that makes GUE so damn valuable in the first place. The ranks will grow over time, and the situation will get better, but at its own pace.

 

[DaleC]

"I guess the question to anyone taking this class is, is it about learning some new dive skills or is it about fitting in with the other kids?"


My answer would be that for most it is about fitting in with the kids and if others were being honest and not just trying to "sell" the course they would agree.

The real benefit from DIR based systems is the holistic approach and in other quarters, cherry picking the system used to be frowned upon. Sure you can take the course just to gain some skills with no thought to adopting the gear configuration or accepting any of the underlying principles such as standardization and universality but that's not what the course was designed for. You throw half the benefits away if you don't dive with other like minded divers who will expect you to "fit in".

People who generally take DIR based training wind up wanting to dive with other DIR oriented divers. If you want to progress past the novice dives there will pressure to standardize your kit. The last time I looked DIR teams were not using jacket BC's and pistol grip lights. And, if one joins in with other divers there is also a sense of peer pressure to progress with more and more training. The leaders and those who are creating the buzz aren't fundies only rec divers and if you only stop there with sub standard gear you will probably wind up feeling like the big kid who always has to eat thanksgiving dinner at the little kids table.

As well, many of the concepts learned are based on a progression towards technical diving. While they may still be applicable in the rec arena they are not designed to be optimal there. So if you are only taking fundies to improve your skills you are also learning some things that were never designed to be applied solely to rec diving.

I don't want to get into it as to whether the training is good or not because I think it's good. I just think it's not totally accurate to suggest that this form of training isn't any more expensive than mainstream training - and that for some that presents a barrier. There may come a day when GUE regrets pushing fundies to rec only minded divers who take one course, discard big parts of the training yet still claim to others they are DIR/GUE trained.

 

[TSandM]

"I guess the question to anyone taking this class is, is it about learning some new dive skills or is it about fitting in with the other kids?"


My answer would be that for most it is about fitting in with the kids and if others were being honest and not just trying to "sell" the course they would agree.

I took the class for the diving skills. I had been watching NW Grateful Diver, and I wanted to dive like he did. What I discovered in the class was the sheer pleasure of diving as a unified team. That was six years ago, and I STILL think that's absolutely delightful.

When someone says I took the class to "fit in with the cool kids", I have a vision of someone pursuing something that isn't necessarily functional, but is required to be "cool". In my experience, I would say that everything I learned or adopted as a result of my GUE and UTD experiences is quintessentially functional. Good gear, intelligently arranged, just WORKS. Standardization WORKS, and makes dealing with issues both before and during the dive a lot easier. Divers with strong skills have more bandwidth to appreciate the underwater environment. (I just read a comment from someone on another thread, criticizing my suggestion that a new diver who wants to work on skills dive with a photographer. He said it'll be 20 minutes before your photographer buddy realizes you're gone. Not if your photographer buddy is a GUE diver.)

I will own the criticism that there's a kind of unspoken assumption that anyone getting involved with GUE simply WILL want to move on to doubles and some kind of technical diving. I deplore this, and I spent a lot of time talking with a couple of senior GUE instructors on our Red Sea trip last year, who agree with me completely. This system probably has the MOST to offer to two kinds of divers -- those doing big exploration projects at great depth or in big cave systems, and . . . the simple recreational single tank diver. Unfortunately, the perception is that GUE diving is only for those with technical aspirations, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. Having strong personal skills and a broader understanding of gas management and decompression, and diving as a cohesive team, makes ALL diving more fun (and probably safer). The gulf between the diver who comes out of OW or AOW or even Rescue, and the diver who has gotten a rec pass from Fundies, can be a HUGE one. Adopting the GUE approach to diving will help confidence in yourself and your buddies. The fact that it also makes the transition to tech or cave very easy may explain why so many people go there . . . but the system works perfectly well on a tropical reef in 40 feet of water.

 

[arthurmnev]

A negative impression is quite a broad stroke. Perhaps, he meant intimidated which is probably common considering the wide gulf in knowledge between DIR trained divers and beginners. Just my 2 psi worth.

There is a wide gulf in knowledge between beginners and non-beginners.
I have no issues with DIR, I think some ideas have merit, make absolutely perfect sense and I do follow them, some, in MY personal opinion do not. The issue that I have does not apply to DIR, it applies to some people I have met that practice DIR. I don't like being snubbed at with an implication that since they are DIR certified, they are the only ones doing it right, so everyone else must be doing it wrong. Personally, I think that is wrong.

 

[Adobo]

I don't want to get into it as to whether the training is good or not because I think it's good. I just think it's not totally accurate to suggest that this form of training isn't any more expensive than mainstream training - and that for some that presents a barrier. There may come a day when GUE regrets pushing fundies to rec only minded divers who take one course, discard big parts of the training yet still claim to others they are DIR/GUE trained.

I can only speak to what I have added to this thread. I have no idea what others are saying and where they are coming from when they say it.

My assertion is plain and simple. Fundies for divers who have local instructors should cost $1000 US or Canadian. That's at the very high end of the spectrum. More likely, you will get away with much less than that especially if you don't have to float the cost of motel.

Whether or not that costs less than what other agencies charge, I have no idea. I don't actually know what the equivalent would be in other agencies. Regardless, it is still a far cry from the $2000 or even $4000 that you suggested in one of your posts.

Some might suggest that changing over to the gear that GUE requires is costly. I assert that this gear (backplate, paddle fins, long hose primary, bungied backup) are not that expensive, can be bought used, and really, if your dive shop sold you a kit that is usable for a wider range of diving, you would own anyway. But whatever, if one doesn't want to incur the cost of this gear, some instructors/dive shops rent this gear anyway so you don't have to buy it.

My answer would be that for most it is about fitting in with the kids and if others were being honest and not just trying to "sell" the course they would agree.

If a diver's objective is to keep up with the Joneses, then the diver might consider getting several extra jobs. There will always be someone who has a better/newer light, a better/newer scooter, a better/newer drysuit. Not to mention that the Joneses frequently not only show up with the latest and greatest dive gear, they usually show up in some fancy luxury SUV.

If you want to progress past the novice dives there will pressure to standardize your kit.

Is that bad? I guess what I am confused about is, what would you like to see here? Would you like GUE to change their approach so that gear/protocol standardization is optional for more advanced dives? Don't they already have agencies that do that?

Regardless, can you name one cave agency that will not require either a backplate or some form of sidemount BC? Can you name one agency that will tell you its okay to go into a cave without a primary light and two backup lights?

Technical diving is expensive. Cave diving is expensive. I don't like it either. If you want to gravitate towards those kinds of dives, have your credit card ready. That's not a function of GUE, that's just the nature of the dives.

So if you are only taking fundies to improve your skills you are also learning some things that were never designed to be applied solely to rec diving.

I never considered improved buoyancy control, improved trim, better communication/teamwork and generally a more methodical approach to diving to be not applicable to rec diving. But you could be right.

 

[JamesK]

There is a wide gulf in knowledge between beginners and non-beginners.
I have no issues with DIR, I think some ideas have merit, make absolutely perfect sense and I do follow them, some, in MY personal opinion do not. The issue that I have does not apply to DIR, it applies to some people I have met that practice DIR. I don't like being snubbed at with an implication that since they are DIR certified, they are the only ones doing it right, so everyone else must be doing it wrong. Personally, I think that is wrong.

That sounds like the attitudes of both a newly minted DIR diver, and a newly minted diver. I find that most DIR divers don't truly believe the I am right and everyone else is wrong mantra. Especially when it comes to recreational diving. KFC does chicken right, that doesn't mean everyone else does chicken wrong.

What exactly is it, in the DIR system, that you feel does not have merit?

 

[PfcAJ]

So if you are only taking fundies to improve your skills you are also learning some things that were never designed to be applied solely to rec diving.

Such as what, exactly?