A somewhat sad conversation last night

[Adobo]

... redundant black t-shirts ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Actually, my question was sincere and honest.

For some people, its a lot of fun to participate in a dog piling session against a person or a group of people who seem like the villains. But are we sure we know who the "villains" are?

In this thread alone, we have all kinds of bad impressions that could easily be the result of interactions with someone who only looks the part but has absolutely no background in DIR:

I've seen plenty of threads started with "I'm looking for a BCD. I'm thinking about xxx and yyy. What are the pros and cons?" and quickly turn into "Get a BP/W. You'll thank me later", which usually isn't helpful, regardless of the poster's intentions.

also imply that "my opinion is the only correct one" and sadly it seems to me that DIR/wanna-DIR divers post such answers more frequently than others either because they just assume everyone to "know why they are right" or because they just subscribe to the DIR idea without really knowing WHY the DIR style of diving preferr the type of gear it preferr.

My first experience with a GUE person was during my first dive after open water and I can say I will never dive with her again. It was a dive run by one of the local shops on the weekend aimed at doing local dives within the limits of newer divers. When she looked at the sign up chart noted that I had just done my OW and pulled me aside and said "Ok you can come and dive with us just don't get me killed or ruin my dive". Simply put she was lucky I was in a good sense of humor. Funny thing is she as the DM for that Saturday dive should have expected newer divers.

I have no doubt that each of these people have had the negative experiences that they are describing. I am not convinced that in each of these cases, the guilty party or the villains have been people who have a real background in DIR (by that, I mean, has training from a instructor who teaches DIR principles).

First of all, I bet if we surveyed everyone on this thread, not everyone would agree what a DIR diver is. Second of all, even if we established what a "DIR" diver is, any random person can claim to be a DIR diver despite not meeting the agreed upon description. Third, people who do not even claim to be DIR (such as yourself) would still be commonly mis-identified as DIR.

Heck, take a look at this post:

DIR is rather a closed philosophy. DIR divers embrace one way of diving. You use a BP/W or your not DIR. If you dive Split fins then you are not DIR. There are DIR divers who refuse to dive with those who are not DIR. No matter how nice someone is, when they refuse to dive with someone because they are not DIR that can lead to problems.

This person posts so emphatically and with so much authority, you would think he has taken all kinds of instruction from GUE. I mean, he has the letter of the gear requirements right so he must know what he is talking about, right? When the truth of the matter is that itemizing gear requirements is meaningless unless there is the accompanying discussion as to why the gear is required. And the latter is actually the more important discussion. Because we always ask ourselves, what is it we are trying to accomplish? And only when we answer that do we ask the question, what tools do we need to accomplish the task?

And I won't even start with this "there are DIR divers who refuse to dive with those who are not DIR. No matter how nice someone is, when they refuse to dive with someone because they are not DIR that can lead to problems." business. Why a moderator is allowed to post something - so clearly out-of-context that it is unfair - is beyond me.

I am enjoying this thread thoroughly but I expect that it accomplishes little of the OP's original intent.

 

[Tigerman]

Adobo, there is a few people on this board who is very vocal about being DIR divers and about the whole "get the BP/W or youll die" kinda statements.
Theres also a reason why i wrote DIR/Wanna-DIR, namely that some of them might just wanna-be rather than actually IS.
And no, its not been just once and yes, it has been better lately than it was a couple of years ago.

 

[Adobo]

Adobo, there is a few people on this board who is very vocal about being DIR divers and about the whole "get the BP/W or youll die" kinda statements.
Theres also a reason why i wrote DIR/Wanna-DIR, namely that some of them might just wanna-be rather than actually IS.
And no, its not been just once and yes, it has been better lately than it was a couple of years ago.

Tigerman, I haven't seen it. Admittedly, I haven't looked in the BCs forum recently so...

If you have a few posts that you remember where someone said that (with a straight face, of course), I'd like to have a look. This seems like a common grievance against DIR divers so I expect there will be numerous examples.

 

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Doomnova
My first experience with a GUE person was during my first dive after open water and I can say I will never dive with her again. It was a dive run by one of the local shops on the weekend aimed at doing local dives within the limits of newer divers. When she looked at the sign up chart noted that I had just done my OW and pulled me aside and said "Ok you can come and dive with us just don't get me killed or ruin my dive". Simply put she was lucky I was in a good sense of humor. Funny thing is she as the DM for that Saturday dive should have expected newer divers.


This can come from a non-DIR/GUE/UTD diver as well if not more often. It is all about the particular diver, his/her personality, and nothing about diving organization

 

[nimoh]

Actually, my question was sincere and honest.
This person posts so emphatically and with so much authority, you would think he has taken all kinds of instruction from GUE. I mean, he has the letter of the gear requirements right so he must know what he is talking about, right? When the truth of the matter is that itemizing gear requirements is meaningless unless there is the accompanying discussion as to why the gear is required. And the latter is actually the more important discussion. Because we always ask ourselves, what is it we are trying to accomplish? And only when we answer that do we ask the question, what tools do we need to accomplish the task?

And I won't even start with this "here are DIR divers who refuse to dive with those who are not DIR. No matter how nice someone is, when they refuse to dive with someone because they are not DIR that can lead to problems." business. Why a moderator is allowed to post something - so clearly out-of-context that it is unfair - is beyond me.

I am enjoying this thread thoroughly but I expect that it accomplishes little of the OP's original intent.

I don't see anything wrong with the post from RonFrank that you quoted. The fact is that DIR divers use BP/W and do not use split fins, to require every post like this to also include the reasons why every time it is posted is a little ridiculous.

He also makes no claim that DIR divers are not allowed to dive with non-DIR divers, merely that there are some DIR divers that choose not to dive with non-DIR divers which is also true. Furthermore, he goes on to state his opposition to this practice.

I don't think you will get a clear answer on how to determine if someone is DIR since it is a community rather than a formal organization. With no formal membership, anybody can claim to be DIR, and people are free to borrow pieces of DIR practice while ignoring other parts, and still claim to be DIR (even though they aren't).

For example, I am listed as Divemaster on ScubaBoard, I had to provide mods with my name, dob and instructor # in order to get this. I am also a member of the DIR Practitioner group which I just joined without any credentials.

 

[Adobo]

I don't see anything wrong with the post from RonFrank that you quoted. The fact is that DIR divers use BP/W and do not use split fins, to require every post like this to also include the reasons why every time it is posted is a little ridiculous.

I agree. Everything he posted is correct. However, my point is, he comes across as someone who is knowledgeable about DIR when in fact, his knowledge is clearly limited. I say this because he has a desire to take fundies in a Zeagle BC which to me is analogous to wanting to take a motor cycle riding class and insisting that he be allowed to do it in a pick up truck.

Again, the point is, its not easy for the uninitiated to determine if the mean and rude comments are coming from a DIR person or someone who is just some random jerk.

 

[mdb]

It seems that people who identify themselves as DIR-Doing it Right are often self congratulatory types who enjoy espousing their chosen form of diving.

There are a lot of very good divers out there and many who seem to be diving quite well without DIR.

It's nice that this small, but very vocal group, feel good about how "WE" do it. It is certainly not the only or even, maybe, the best way.

 

[vcblklion]

Quite honestly, I learned about DIR from Scubaboard. The things I read made me want to investigate further and now I find myself pursuing the goal of learning how to dive DIR. Anyone that would form an opinion or judgement prior to investigation.......just isn't worth the effort of giving credibility to IMHO....just my $.02

 

[Tigerman]

It seems that people who identify themselves as DIR-Doing it Right are often self congratulatory types who enjoy espousing their chosen form of diving.

There are a lot of very good divers out there and many who seem to be diving quite well without DIR.

It's nice that this small, but very vocal group, feel good about how "WE" do it. It is certainly not the only or even, maybe, the best way.

In one aspect it IS the best way though and that is the fact that both/all divers in a group goes in with the same gear configuration.

Wether or not the same thing can be accomplished with jacket BCDs, split fins, total silt-out trim and whatnot is another path of discussion, but having all the divers on the dive in the same configuration does make it easier to assist eachother if there is an incident as whoever has the issue has the same base configuration as you do yourself.

 

[nimoh]

I agree. Everything he posted is correct. However, my point is, he comes across as someone who is knowledgeable about DIR when in fact, his knowledge is clearly limited. I say this because he has a desire to take fundies in a Zeagle BC which to me is analogous to wanting to take a motor cycle riding class and insisting that he be allowed to do it in a pick up truck.

Again, the point is, its not easy for the uninitiated to determine if the mean and rude comments are coming from a DIR person or someone who is just some random jerk.

My apologies, I was only reading the segment you quoted and didn't realize you were also referring to other posts (that I might not remember)