A somewhat sad conversation last night

[nimoh]

I wouldn't go so far as to say my PADI training has not taught me ANYTHING about being a better diver, but I agree that GUE has a lot more to offer in that respect.

 

[Shasta_man]

Interestingly, I don't even know what DIR or GUE means.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What do you disagree with:
Do you disagree that the folks of old earned a particular reputation that is not flattering? I think that's easy enough to show with a usenet search.
Do you disagree that the folks currently diving are dogged by that reputation? I think TSandM's threed that we're currently participating is an example of that being the case.
Do you disagree that few folks today deserve that reputation? It seems to me that you're arguing that very point.

It seems to me that you have acknowledged each of those points in this very thread.

Now, if your point is that it is unfair, I don't disagree with that nor did I argue it was either fair or deserved. However, fairness has nothing to do with it. The world isn't fair. People hold negative opinions of groups based on limited interactions. A small number of vocal, visible folks can ruin the great reputation of a large number of people doing good things very easily. That's just the way human beings work.

I disagree with this part ...

there are enough people, minority though they are, who ensure the stereotype continues.

Why should a minority ensure that a stereotype continues? I'd prefer to judge the few misbehavors as individuals, rather than stereotype a much larger group who doesn't deserve it.

"That's just the way it is" is a cop-out for people who are looking for a way to rationalize irrational behavior ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added April 13th, 2012 at 02:36 PM ----------

Interestingly, I don't even know what DIR or GUE means.

On this board it means another opportunity for some members to drag out old quarrels that should have been put aside a decade ago ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kingpatzer]

I disagree with this part ...



Why should a minority ensure that a stereotype continues? I'd prefer to judge the few misbehavors as individuals, rather than stereotype a much larger group who doesn't deserve it.

"That's just the way it is" is a cop-out for people who are looking for a way to rationalize irrational behavior ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

A minority ensure that a stereotype continues because human nature is what it is. You can feel that is unjust, unfair, and irrational. Guess what? Life isn't fair and human beings aren't rational.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I don't mean to be disrespectful of DIR divers, but.....if a particular group of divers are taught a particular way to dive and they are taught that this very particular way of diving is EXTREMELY well thought out, perfectly organized, optimized for all conditions, does NOT lend itself to personal preference or "tweaking", provides the highest degree of safety, requires a high degree of personal fitness, a dedication to team work, skill development (and maintenance) and is utilized by many of the most accomplished divers in the world.... and then you name it "Doing IT RIGHT".......

Well why wouldn't a certain number of these newly trained divers be very proud of their accomplishments and begin to exude an aire of superiority? It almost seems inevitable...

I'm sure it takes a lot of experience and exposure to many non-DIR divers who are "good and safe" before the idea that "I'M doing it RIGHT; so YOU must be doing it WRONG" begins to soften a little bit.

 

[matts1w]

...he showed me just a little of the DIR philosophy that my PADI training didn't teach me ANYTHING about being a better diver...and that's why I went for Rescue training. After that I started doing research on my own and found much of my information about GUE/DIR here on scubaboard. I don't understand why some people would want to put down a system of diving because of a few egotistical people or because of an acronym such as DIR......If you take the time to see what all the hubub is about you will find a learning system that challenges you to be a better diver.....if you're not trying to improve your skills in a sport that can be life threating, why bother...?

PADI sucks? I might die?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

A minority ensure that a stereotype continues because human nature is what it is. You can feel that is unjust, unfair, and irrational. Guess what? Life isn't fair and human beings aren't rational.

People believe what they want to believe.

Put 25 people in a room. One of them starts acting like a jack-ass. Do you then stereotype everyone in the room as a jack-ass?

It depends on what you've already decided about that group of people. If you've decided before interacting with them that you won't like them, then you'll look for any reason to justify that decision. On the other hand, if you've decided that you'll judge them based on their overall behavior, then you'll discount the one as a jack-ass, and judge the rest according to their actions.

Life is exactly as fair as you decide to make it ...

---------- Post added April 13th, 2012 at 03:16 PM ----------

I'm sure it takes a lot of experience and exposure to many non-DIR divers who are "good and safe" before the idea that "I'm doing it right; so YOU must be doing it wrong" begins to soften a little bit.

... usually takes about a month for the bruises to wear off the ego ... then they come back to earth. Meantime, it's like dealing with teen-agers ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Blackwood]

It's good to see that nothing's changed in my (more-or-less) hiatus from scubaboard.

Oy.

To paraphrase NWGratefulDiver's oft description of some DIR folks, I'm going back to be the best I can be at something else now (in particular: parenting).

 

[vcblklion]

PADI sucks? I might die?

Not because you're PADI certified. You might be an excellent diver. I'm talking about MY experience and what I expect from the training I got. I'll share an experience. During my advanced class, I was going for my first night dive. I was partnered with my PADI instructor's brother. Not only did I have trouble getting in to the surf (as I wasn't very experienced doing it), my parter and I lost the instructor and the rest of the class 5 minutes into our dive. My partner signaled "UP" and I made my ascent. When I got there, my partner was nowhere to be found. I could see lights below but had no idea what they were doing. After being on the surface, in the dark, by myself for about 3-4 minutes....I went back in to shore. As this was only my 3rd shore dive...negotiating the surf back in was also a challenge. When the PADI instructor and the rest of my class finally came back to shore 30 minutes later....he made a joke about me in front of everyone to the effect of "why did you come back to shore...? we're here to dive..."

I could have taken that very uncomfortable experience and gone around shouting how much PADI sucks.....but I didn't. I just stated in my previous post that MY PADI training didn't prepare ME for being a better diver.....I have no idea what your training did for you. All I know is that what I've seen so far about GUE/DIR training is more in line with what I expect for being a better diver....MYSELF....and I posited that I don't understand why some people would take a few examples of egotisical divers and use that as a reason for comtempt of a system prior to investigation....

 

[lamont]

vcblklion, I am talking about the local community (dir-nl/frogkick.nl), not about GUE in general.

They've got a very large community there and that mailing list is going to carry its own problems to manage. And based on their policy of requiring you to commit to fundies and kicking you out if you don't pass, I suspect that they've had incidents with vocal posters arguing why-cant-i-take-fundies-in-a-zeagle-ranger kinds of trolling that none of the members want to read.