Advanced open water? is it too soon? or my own BCD

[Jim Lapenta]

"I don't really know how these classes are run in the UK, but in the US, AOW is designed as an immediate follow-on to the OW class. People who wait and take it significantly later are often disappointed at the content."

This is a general statement that does not apply to all instructors or even agencies in the US. The disappointment comes when they find that the "Advanced" class is not and does not introduce new skills or require some degree of proficiency in basic skills before starting it. Few fresh out of OW students that I have not trained or that instructors who teach like I do have trained could get through my AOW class successfully. It is designed as a pass, fail, or practice and come back course. Not one that says " ok we did the dives, here's your card". I'm not the only one teaching an AOW like this but it does take some effort to find an instructor that does as I do. But we are out there.

Some agencies also require basic rescue skills that are included in their OW classes. There are other skills that they offer in their OW classes that others don't require until DM or not at all before going into the AOW class. So don't assume that all AOW classes are the same. They are not just as there are major differences in OW training among different agencies. It is often said that the instructor makes the difference and it's true. But it is also to a large degree how much freedom the agency gives that instructor and what their own minimum standards are.

The standards of my agency not only encourage but require us to go beyond the basics and to test on that for certification. Local conditions sometimes require very different skill sets. Look for a class that takes that into consideration and adds material to best suit that. And that requires you to meet those standards before they give you a card.

At the end you should be able to say you'd let your kids dive with someone trained to the same degree as yourself without you or a professional around.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't really know how these classes are run in the UK, but in the US, AOW is designed as an immediate follow-on to the OW class. People who wait and take it significantly later are often disappointed at the content.

That describes PADI AOW ... NAUI AOW can be significantly different, and not at all amenable to taking directly from OW. You cannot get SSI AOW directly out of OW ... it requires a minimum of 25 dives.

And I know many people who chose to take AOW straight after OW who were also disappointed at the content. That speaks more to how the class was taught than what the class has to offer.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

That describes PADI AOW ...

Which makes it pertinent because the OP is a PADI trained diver...most likely considering a PADI AOW course.

Entry-level recreational diving in the UK is either going to be PADI or BSAC. Other agencies don't feature much. BSAC don't have a course called 'AOW'... so that leaves PADI

NAUI AOW can be significantly different, and not at all amenable to taking directly from OW...

Which sounds similar to the SEI AOW course that Jim describes. It's important not to confuse the advice given for these courses when someone is asking about a PADI course...

They are fundamentally different...and I do agree that the PADI AOW course is ideally suited as an immediate progression/reinforcement of the OW course.

This is especially true in the UK, where environmental factors and related specialist skills make further training (beyond the OW minimum) highly desirable from the outset...

You cannot get SSI AOW directly out of OW ... it requires a minimum of 25 dives.

This is true. However, the SSI AOW is not the direct equivalent of the PADI AOW. They have a course called 'Advanced Adventurer' which is the direct equivalent. The SSI AOW course is more closely related to the PADI MSD level.

And I know many people who chose to take AOW straight after OW who were also disappointed at the content. That speaks more to how the class was taught than what the class has to offer.

I agree 100%

Selection, research...and even interview... of a potential instructor is highly recommended before committing to an AOW course. The course content is very low... so you really need an instructor who will go beyond the 'bare minimum' course requirements.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

I think this is one of the more thoughtful and useful threads lately in this forum, and I think the case is made for the reasons to not rush into the AOW class. That is my personal view, but there is something to be said for not delaying, including getting a good deal. I have had advanced open water students with over 50 dives, and I have had those with less than 10 dives. I am confident that every student has emerged from the AOW class as a better diver. Because of the nature of the class, more independence and more competence is demanded of them in order to pass and to get the certification. Mastery of basic skills and proper execution of a search, plotting and carrying out a compass navigation, dive planning and execution generally, and other skills specific to the dives included in the course depending on location ( dealing with current, night conditions, deep dives, thermoclines, etc) all lead to growth as a competent and safe and independent diver. However, it is also my experience that there is no substitute for experience, and that you need to be an active diver to maintain and improve diving skills. So I have to disagree with g1138. There is value and learning on every dive, and you don't need an instructor or divemaster along to practice and improve you diving skills. However, not only the course content, but having a competent professional observe and critique you is valuable as you grow as a diver, whether those AOW dives are among your first ten or second hundred. Oh yeah- I am also a huge proponent of having you own equipment, sized to fit you and selected to meet your needs. Having your own gear will lead to being a more active diver, and you will learn more about the equipment, which is a good thing. It's hard to choose between a class and a bcd, so I suggest you not choose- go for both.
DivemasterDennis scubasnobs.com

 

[Ste Wart]

Just curious, which dive shop is offering the course? £179 is pretty cheap. You'd be more likely to see those prices in Egypt or Asia. Is everything included in that price. E.g Manual and Equipment. Have a look at the fine print before you commit.

 

[billfrombyron]

As a fairly new diver, I took OW, AOW and EANX all in the same week back in May.

As for the content of the AOW online course with PADI I was a bit disheartened, but I did learn a lot of useful information. The other bonus to taking AOW right away for me, is that in my area there isn't much to see that is above 18M limitations of the OW. Once you get down to 20M-30M there is lots of stuff to see in the Persian gulf.

I would recommend you take the AOW course, then focus on buying your kit. Once I got my certs out of the way, I focused on my kit. Now that the kit is almost sorted, I'm focused on diving my butt off every chance I get .

I did 14 dives with rental gear, then I made my BC, Reg set purchase and have been spending less to go diving more.

I hope this helps.

-Byron

 

[DevonDiver]

Just curious, which dive shop is offering the course? £179 is pretty cheap. You'd be more likely to see those prices in Egypt or Asia. Is everything included in that price. E.g Manual and Equipment. Have a look at the fine print before you commit.

I agree with that advice. It works out at £35 per dive, with a free manual...kit... It'd be a steal at that cost...!

 

[TSandM]

It has been my experience, which is admittedly limited, that in cold water and low viz, students are struggling at the beginning with just the very basic activities of diving -- buoyancy control, breathing, and awareness. Although I think more supervised dives are often not a bad thing at all, I'm not sure how many students, after four OW dives, are really in a position to absorb any NEW material. And I have SERIOUS doubts (reinforced by several local deaths) about how many of them are ready to start doing deep dives.

In my "ideal" arrangement of the existing curriculum, students would do OW, and then a few dives with an experienced buddy (pro or not), and then do something like PPB, where they can focus clearly on one set of skills. Then a few dives, and maybe the nav specialty (since navigation is something you use all the time). A few dives, maybe a night dive or two, and THEN maybe the deep specialty. To me, that would give a nice balance of practice and experience, and absorption of new skills.

 

[devildoc5]

It has been my experience, which is admittedly limited, that in cold water and low viz, students are struggling at the beginning with just the very basic activities of diving -- buoyancy control, breathing, and awareness. Although I think more supervised dives are often not a bad thing at all, I'm not sure how many students, after four OW dives, are really in a position to absorb any NEW material. And I have SERIOUS doubts (reinforced by several local deaths) about how many of them are ready to start doing deep dives.

In my "ideal" arrangement of the existing curriculum, students would do OW, and then a few dives with an experienced buddy (pro or not), and then do something like PPB, where they can focus clearly on one set of skills. Then a few dives, and maybe the nav specialty (since navigation is something you use all the time). A few dives, maybe a night dive or two, and THEN maybe the deep specialty. To me, that would give a nice balance of practice and experience, and absorption of new skills.

My LDS here has a program setup for Active Duty Marines to use their Tuition Assistance (free money for active duty to take classes) to go from non-diver (or whatever their current certification level is) to SSI Dive Master.

The way this program is being implemented is as follows (schedules depending of course): OW, Nav, Night,Deep, Search and Recovery, Stress and Rescue, Dive Master Program.

The caveat is that if you look at SSI's standards there is no way someone is just going to take these and be done. One must actually devote time AWAY FROM CLASSES to obtain the required number of dives. This creates an environment where it encourages those in the DM program to dive with the newbies (experience in a trainingish setting) and encourages the newbies to dive with the DM candidates as they are more experienced and can provide support for buoyancy issues, Gas management, etc....

Another good thing about this is that it thus MINIMIZES the shops liability. As a DM candidate you technically dont have to have insurance (only once you go physical hands on do you need it) but you can audit classes all you want without having insurance. Thus the shops group policy is less during this time, yet the students and candidates both get more experience in what they need work on without it becoming a DM>student issue. It is now a "this guy is working towards his advanced levels, but you should see if he wants to go diving on Saturday. Maybe he could show you a few "tricks" that will help you become a better diver just by watching him." Just two different levels of experienced divers going on a buddy with one imparting knowledge from experiences on the other.

That being said this shop also does something I havent seen too many other shops do. Even when it is just shop staff/candidates on the dive they make sure and enforce the notion that EVERY dive is a training dive. If you have done a dive and not learned anything you either need to move up to the next level or open your eyes. This makes it so that people are constantly striving to learn. "What can I take away from this dive?" "What did I learn/see/hear that might help me become a better diver?" "What did I see that I need to forget?"

Questions like that are what make good divers in my opinion, not just the divers that can go out and do a technical penetration dive of a wreck at 300 feet. The big thing is what did they learn/take away from the dive?

 

[craigowen89]

The £179 includes everything, which is a very good deal. The course consists of 5 dives - Peak performance buoyancy, wreck dive, deep dive, navigation and one more i can't remember.

also 2 days hire and air would come to near on £75 for me anyway!

One of the main reasons it appeals to me is a diver i know recommended that i should do the peak performance buoyancy adventure dive. I was told it will help me improve my buoyancy much quicker than if i took that course.

I recognise although i would have a card that says 'advanced' on i will be by no means an advanced diver! I would also find the extra depth useful, as my local dive site (UK dive site stoney cove) has a lot of interesting sites to see at 22m!

Thanks for all the input guys, it has helped a lot!