Advanced open water? is it too soon? or my own BCD

[devildoc5]

The other thing I was gonna point out is that at my LDS here if someone comes in with an AOW card that has the specialties of "Boat Diving, Underwater Photography, Perfect Buoyancy, Tides and Currents, Fish Identification, etc." they get laughed out of the dive shop.

Yes those classes are beneficial to take (especially to be able to teach them later on) but they should in NO WAY mean that you are an Advanced Open Water diver because you can take pictures and tell us what kind of fish it is.

Dont see anything wrong with the classes they have you taking (well maybe the buoyancy one but eh well cant win em all), just try and make sure that "one more I can't remember" isnt Tides and Currents or anything else that does not actually REQUIRE a dive for the course.

If you have any say it it I would try getting Night/Limited Viz in there.

 

[DevonDiver]

The other thing I was gonna point out is that at my LDS here if someone comes in with an AOW card that has the specialties of "Boat Diving, Underwater Photography, Perfect Buoyancy, Tides and Currents, Fish Identification, etc." they get laughed out of the dive shop.

Mustn't be a busy dive shop then.... or one that I'd like to visit.

Yes those classes are beneficial to take (especially to be able to teach them later on) but they should in NO WAY mean that you are an Advanced Open Water diver because you can take pictures and tell us what kind of fish it is.

Actually...it means EXACTLY THAT. The diver concerned has conducted training that satisfies the standards and requirements for AOW.

I think you are applying some personal ego into your definition of AOW. It isn't a high level qualification. It is designed to provide a breadth of experience to novice divers and allow them to sample a variety of specialised diving activities...to suit their interests.

It is not, and never will be, any sort of 'advanced diving' certification. Neither is it any benchmark of proficiency or capability (very few courses are).

Dont see anything wrong with the classes they have you taking (well maybe the buoyancy one but eh well cant win em all),

Your buoyancy is perfect? Really?

just try and make sure that "one more I can't remember" isnt Tides and Currents or anything else that does not actually REQUIRE a dive for the course.

Go dive in a location where knowledge of tides and currents is critical. Then re-appraise your valuation of the knowledge presented in that course.

 

[devildoc5]

Mustn't be a busy dive shop then.... or one that I'd like to visit.



Actually...it means EXACTLY THAT. The diver concerned has conducted training that satisfies the standards and requirements for AOW.

I think you are applying some personal ego into your definition of AOW. It isn't a high level qualification. It is designed to provide a breadth of experience to novice divers and allow them to sample a variety of specialised diving activities...to suit their interests.

It is not, and never will be, any sort of 'advanced diving' certification. Neither is it any benchmark of proficiency or capability (very few courses are).



Your buoyancy is perfect? Really?



Go dive in a location where knowledge of tides and currents is critical. Then re-appraise your valuation of the knowledge presented in that course.

Ok maybe I wasnt clear. Someone who claims to be an AOW diver yet ONLY has those certifications will be laughed out of the store.

It's not that those courses dont have their place, it's just that most seem to think "Oh I am an AOW now so I can go dive the Andrea Doria now."

That is the mentality that gets people laughed at when they go into my LDS. It's not an ego thing on the shops part, it's an ego thing on the customers' part.

I never said my buoyancy was perfect, highly doubt it EVER will be. However I am not too sure there is much that a class with only one dive will be able to teach ANYONE about buoyancy that would be any different to going to there home dive site and diving. I have found experience to be the greatest teacher in most cases.

In regards to the tides and currents, I am not belittling the class itself. However what I was getting at is the OP is still a beginning diver (i.e. not more than 2 or three dives out of OW class.) I was not downgrading tides and currents, I was merely trying to make the argument (apparently ineffectively) that a course with DIVES required for it would be more beneficial to the OP.

If you will notice in the part you quoted I clearly stated "Yes those classes are beneficial to take " However I am of the firm belief that these types of classes (the ones that are taught in the classroom only but are still awarded a specialty) are not going to make someone an AOW Diver. Or even a "specialty" such as Computer Diving. ALL OW students now a days are taught computers, with most books relegating tables to the back appendix of the book. Not that this right or correct or that I even agree with it, however there should be no need to take a specialty for something you already have training in. Once you have training you gain experience. That is what makes you an AOWD.

 

[DevonDiver]

Ok maybe I wasnt clear. Someone who claims to be an AOW diver yet ONLY has those certifications will be laughed out of the store.

I'd like to think that a professional dive operation would counsel and advise those divers, according to their experience, rather than just "laugh them out of the store". But that's just me...

It's not that those courses dont have their place, it's just that most seem to think "Oh I am an AOW now so I can go dive the Andrea Doria now."

I see what you're getting at. That's why PADI recommend divers to moderate their diving according to their training and experience.

A single AOW deep dive doesn't constitute universal experience in deep diving.

If the diver hasn't studied drift/tidal/current techniques in their AOW course, then they don't have training or experience for dives in substantial water movement.

That is the mentality that gets people laughed at when they go into my LDS. It's not an ego thing on the shops part, it's an ego thing on the customers' part.

If you're laughing at someone, then ego/arrogance is certainly present. I'd expect the dive shop to show a more responsible attitude. Polite guidance is far more effective when dealing with ill-informed divers.

...I am not too sure there is much that a class with only one dive will be able to teach ANYONE about buoyancy that would be any different to going to there home dive site and diving. I have found experience to be the greatest teacher in most cases.

I've found differently. A single dive is limited... but if correctly placed within the order of AOW training, then it can be reinforced and developed over every subsequent dive.

I don't understand the logic that someone can achieve more efficient technical improvements un-aided (by trial and error), rather than with the benefit of informed critical feedback and remedial advice.

In regards to the tides and currents, I am not belittling the class itself. However what I was getting at is the OP is still a beginning diver (i.e. not more than 2 or three dives out of OW class.) I was not downgrading tides and currents, I was merely trying to make the argument (apparently ineffectively) that a course with DIVES required for it would be more beneficial to the OP.

I think it's hard to determine what is most useful for someone else, unless you are very familiar with them...and the conditions they dive in.

That (tides) theoretical knowledge can be critical in some areas. As you said, it doesn't provide in-water experience, but such experience can easily be gained outside of the course. The knowledge may not be so easy to gain outside the course. So which is better for the diver?

If you will notice in the part you quoted I clearly stated "Yes those classes are beneficial to take " However I am of the firm belief that these types of classes (the ones that are taught in the classroom only but are still awarded a specialty) are not going to make someone an AOW Diver.

I think you are attributing something to the status of being an 'AOW Diver' that doesn't really exist... neither in the agency definition of what that dive level means... nor in the reality of what any given AOW diver is capable of.

Or even a "specialty" such as Computer Diving. ALL OW students now a days are taught computers, with most books relegating tables to the back appendix of the book. Not that this right or correct or that I even agree with it, however there should be no need to take a specialty for something you already have training in. Once you have training you gain experience.

From what I see of the standard of many divers' (miss-)use and (miss-)understanding of their computers, I think that further training is invaluable. That's why several companies have emerged to provide specific model-based training in online and classroom courses (some associated with PADI distinctive speciality courses).

Training given on dive computers within entry-level courses is very superficial.

That is what makes you an AOWD.

According to your definition (and the dive centre that has obviously influenced you with their limited scope and inflexible view of the course/qualification).

 

[Crush]

Great work!

I was going to reply, but in the first page you have received responses from Jim, Bob, Thal, and TSandM - anything that I could say would be redundant or ineloquent by comparison.

 

[devildoc5]

I'd like to think that a professional dive operation would counsel and advise those divers, according to their experience, rather than just "laugh them out of the store". But that's just me...



I see what you're getting at. That's why PADI recommend divers to moderate their diving according to their training and experience.

A single AOW deep dive doesn't constitute universal experience in deep diving.

If the diver hasn't studied drift/tidal/current techniques in their AOW course, then they don't have training or experience for dives in substantial water movement.



If you're laughing at someone, then ego/arrogance is certainly present. I'd expect the dive shop to show a more responsible attitude. Polite guidance is far more effective when dealing with ill-informed divers.



I've found differently. A single dive is limited... but if correctly placed within the order of AOW training, then it can be reinforced and developed over every subsequent dive.

I don't understand the logic that someone can achieve more efficient technical improvements un-aided (by trial and error), rather than with the benefit of informed critical feedback and remedial advice.



I think it's hard to determine what is most useful for someone else, unless you are very familiar with them...and the conditions they dive in.

That (tides) theoretical knowledge can be critical in some areas. As you said, it doesn't provide in-water experience, but such experience can easily be gained outside of the course. The knowledge may not be so easy to gain outside the course. So which is better for the diver?



I think you are attributing something to the status of being an 'AOW Diver' that doesn't really exist... neither in the agency definition of what that dive level means... nor in the reality of what any given AOW diver is capable of.



From what I see of the standard of many divers' (miss-)use and (miss-)understanding of their computers, I think that further training is invaluable. That's why several companies have emerged to provide specific model-based training in online and classroom courses (some associated with PADI distinctive speciality courses).

Training given on dive computers within entry-level courses is very superficial.



According to your definition (and the dive centre that has obviously influenced you with their limited scope and inflexible view of the course/qualification).

ok there is still something getting crossed here, maybe you are not understanding me or I am not understanding you.

The shop is SSI I am SSI trained. SSI REQUIRES a certain number of dives as well as a certain number of specialties to be an AOWD. That GENERALLY means that someone has EXPERIENCE to back up the KNOWLEDGE they have obtained.

Also it appears as though to be a PADI AOW you only have to "try out a few specialties." That is probably why they are not TRULY AOWD's in the sense we are both alluding to.

However anyone who goes through SSI AOW will, by benefit of greater number of dives and specialties, be a better and more advanced diver than someone who has not. (Tech and Commercial divers aside).

That is the mentality of both my LDS as well as myself. Therefore while certain specialties are nice to have (Photography, Videography, Fish ID, Boat Diving, etc.) these are specialties that generally do not require a SINGLE dive or if they do require that the diver simply regurgitate information learned in OW class (Giant stride, gear assembly, how to secure gear, etc.) that does NOTHING to ADVANCE the knowledge and experience of a diver.

Thus they are not Advanced Divers. Period end of story. There is no 2 ways around it.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

ad·vanced (

d-v

nst

)ad

1. Highly developed or complex.

2. Being at a higher level than others.

3. Ahead of the times; progressive.

4. Far along in course or time.

Some others:

1. being ahead in development, knowledge, progress, etc.

2. having reached a comparatively late stage.

3. ahead of the times.

 

[DevonDiver]

ad·vanced (

d-v

nst

)ad

1. Highly developed or complex.

2. Being at a higher level than others.

3. Ahead of the times; progressive.

4. Far along in course or time.

Some others:

1. being ahead in development, knowledge, progress, etc.

2. having reached a comparatively late stage.

3. ahead of the times.

Yep, which is why it is important to place emphasis on the words OPEN WATER at the end of it.

AOW is further along, more progressed, more developed, more complex, more ahead than OW. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I hear ya.

Perhaps "Intermediate" would be a better representation of the typical course offering.

-Mitch

 

[dmoore19]

@Devildoc5

The PADI website states 2 dives are mandatory 1. Deep Dive, 2. Navigation

Advanced Open Water Diver Course from PADI Professional Scuba Divers' Training Organization

The other 3 are elective.

So if someone has an AOW cert with the 5 dives you mention then they did not get the required dives and should not have an AOW certification.


The shop I took the AOW with also made PPB a requirement as that was one they were teaching on that trip. PPB was the best part of the AOW cert for me. I had an instructor that helped me sort out not just buoyancy but trim. We dropped weight and moved weight around to get both sorted out. I feel it is critical to have someone watch and feel what is going on. You cannot view yourself to see what your trim is like you need someone to watch what you are doing. You can laugh off PPB if you want but since buoyancy and trim are 2 of the fundamental parts of comfortable, efficient and safe diving fine tuning is extremely important. Before anybody jumps in and says it should have been done in OW, it was. I changed gear and needed the help in sorting out the changes the different gear presented.