After dive oxygen: shouldn’t the diver decide?

[bakodiver391]

To Beano; No I'm not a smoker, smoking and tech diving, now THAT"S dangerous. Your assertion that the United States tort system is only about safety is nothing short of ludicrous. I have to think the popularity of overseas "adventure" tourism is a symptom of people saying "Enough. We want to make decisions about our own activities because our government has done a terrible job on our behalf" Lawyers will eagerly argue both sides of any situation, so as I said previously, a first responder should do what he feels is right and forget about the lawyers. I have the unfortunate experience of seeing quite a few minor DCS cases, and administering O2 cleared up a large percentage of them. Not masked or delayed symptoms, cured the underlying tissue insult so that a day later the diver could resume diving. Mad, you say? Not in the real world of remote location technical diving.

 

[KenGordon]

The University of Miami scientific dive team (rebreathers) standard protocol is to breath 100% O2 on the surface for 5 minutes following every trimix dive. The Diving Safety Officer for UM is also the president of AAUS this year. Is that what you meant? They don't need O2, they follow their Vision software to the letter. They want O2 on the surface. They also do a 5 minute O2 deco at 15 feet on their ascent. They are extremely conservative divers. Lots of tech divers breath 100% off of their deco bottles on the surface. Maybe 20% or more?

[/COLOR]

That is just the surface stop, they planned that and will have sat on their rebreathers will as near 100 as they can get it to.

I am after examples of these childish, doing it pointlessly claims being used to say that wanting O2 is wrong.

 

[Wookie]

That is just the surface stop, they planned that and will have sat on their rebreathers will as near 100 as they can get it to.

I am after examples of these childish, doing it pointlessly claims being used to say that wanting O2 is wrong.

Can't help you with that. I never think wanting O2 is wrong.

 

[NAM001]

Its opinion of course but i dont think the conversation is about tech divers and thier o2 regiments. If they have a need,, for the dive plan,, they use it accordingly. Its the rec divers that want it for inproper reasons. If a rec diver needs O2 on the boat something did not go right with the plan. If a tech uses O2 on the boat it is probably part of the plan. Should convienience inhalers be accomodated at the expence of a casuality victom using emergency supplies. I say no. You techies are mo st likely not convienience inhalers and you would most lkely have your own supply and not ask for emergency O2. In additon i have never been on a boat that allowed tech diving with rec divers on board. It is either a tech trip or a rec trip with the restrictions put out on hte site brief. Most i have been on say exced 130' or ndl and you are done for the day. Period. Some say onboard with less than 400# and you skip the next dive. Necessary O2 is never a factor on those boats.

To Beano; No I'm not a smoker, smoking and tech diving, now THAT"S dangerous. Your assertion that the United States tort system is only about safety is nothing short of ludicrous. I have to think the popularity of overseas "adventure" tourism is a symptom of people saying "Enough. We want to make decisions about our own activities because our government has done a terrible job on our behalf" Lawyers will eagerly argue both sides of any situation, so as I said previously, a first responder should do what he feels is right and forget about the lawyers. I have the unfortunate experience of seeing quite a few minor DCS cases, and administering O2 cleared up a large percentage of them. Not masked or delayed symptoms, cured the underlying tissue insult so that a day later the diver could resume diving. Mad, you say? Not in the real world of remote location technical diving.

 

[Wookie]

Seems that there are 2 schools of thought here. Emergency O2 supplies should be reserved for emergencies and should never be handed out unless a medical emergency exists, and if a medical emergency exists, then followup care from/with a higher medical authority needs to be a part of the plan. I can't argue with that.

OTOH, some diver comes up and wants to use the medical O2 to hedge his bets, and he doesn't necessarily want medical attention, he just wants some O2 for reasons he is keeping to himself. This may limit the amount of O2 available for true medical emergencies later on.

I think I have it right. No one objects to using O2 recreationally if they bring it themselves, although some balk at the amount of room available to store extra O2.

So I think it comes down to: WHo decides whether or not a medical emergency exists? Can the Captain decide to or not withhold his somewhat limited supply of O2 if he feels it isn't a medical emergency? And if the recreational diver insists that he is having a medical emergency, is it unfair to insist that the diver be evacuated in the case of a remote liveaboard, or head for the dock in the event it's a day boat? And if they do head to the dock, chances are someone will be unhappy and that will cost the dive operator something, either in the wallet or in goodwill. Should the person who insists that they are having a medical emergency cover the cost of making the rest of the passengers happy? I fully understand that no one cares about losing a dive in the event of a real medical emergency. And if someone cares, I don't care that they care. In the event of the real deal, the boat is going home, and the rest of the pax can suck it up, basically.

In the event on the other liveaboard, they could have evacuated the person who insisted on going on O2 to the army base on an island more than a helicopter ride from real medical authority. That would have satisfied the procedures. That would have satisfied the captain/crew. It would not have satisfied the passenger, nor gotten him to medical help in any reasonable amount of time. Is that a better solution than seeing if he got better?

 

[KenGordon]

Should convienience inhalers be accomodated at the expence of a casuality victom using emergency supplies.

I have never met any of these 'convenience inhalers' so I don't think rules are needed to deal with them. I could be wrong and US boats might be dry of O2 daily, is that the case?

 

[uncfnp]

Seems that there are 2 schools of thought here. Emergency O2 supplies should be reserved for emergencies and should never be handed out unless a medical emergency exists, and if a medical emergency exists, then followup care from/with a higher medical authority needs to be a part of the plan. I can't argue with that.

OTOH, some diver comes up and wants to use the medical O2 to hedge his bets, and he doesn't necessarily want medical attention, he just wants some O2 for reasons he is keeping to himself. This may limit the amount of O2 available for true medical emergencies later on.

I think I have it right. No one objects to using O2 recreationally if they bring it themselves, although some balk at the amount of room available to store extra O2.

Excellent summation!

So I think it comes down to: WHo decides whether or not a medical emergency exists? Can the Captain decide to or not withhold his somewhat limited supply of O2 if he feels it isn't a medical emergency? And if the recreational diver insists that he is having a medical emergency, is it unfair to insist that the diver be evacuated in the case of a remote liveaboard, or head for the dock in the event it's a day boat? And if they do head to the dock, chances are someone will be unhappy and that will cost the dive operator something, either in the wallet or in goodwill. Should the person who insists that they are having a medical emergency cover the cost of making the rest of the passengers happy? I fully understand that no one cares about losing a dive in the event of a real medical emergency. And if someone cares, I don't care that they care. In the event of the real deal, the boat is going home, and the rest of the pax can suck it up, basically.

In the event on the other liveaboard, they could have evacuated the person who insisted on going on O2 to the army base on an island more than a helicopter ride from real medical authority. That would have satisfied the procedures. That would have satisfied the captain/crew. It would not have satisfied the passenger, nor gotten him to medical help in any reasonable amount of time. Is that a better solution than seeing if he got better?

Welcome to the world of Damned if you do and Damned if you don't.

I have never met any of these 'convenience inhalers' so I don't think rules are needed to deal with them. I could be wrong and US boats might be dry of O2 daily, is that the case?

I think the "convenience inhaler" is a more or less theoretical idea from NetDoc's original suggestion to make O2 freely available to all.

...//...First, oxygen should be freely available and offered after any incident such as an accident, missed stop (safety or obligated), long surface swim or any time a diver seems to have undergone stress. “Would you like some oxygen?” should be a common question on a dive boat...//...

 

[Bob DBF]

So I think it comes down to: WHo decides whether or not a medical emergency exists?

The diver, the captain if the diver is in no condition to figure it out himself.

Can the Captain decide to or not withhold his somewhat limited supply of O2 if he feels it isn't a medical emergency?

Of course, he is the Captain. Although he may have other authorities to deal with later, especially if he is wrong.

And if the recreational diver insists that he is having a medical emergency, is it unfair to insist that the diver be evacuated in the case of a remote liveaboard, or head for the dock in the event it's a day boat?

As above, the diver calls the emergency, and first aid is given until a medical professional can deal with the problem. (DAN Dr over the phone could make the call)

And if they do head to the dock, chances are someone will be unhappy and that will cost the dive operator something, either in the wallet or in goodwill. Should the person who insists that they are having a medical emergency cover the cost of making the rest of the passengers happy? I fully understand that no one cares about losing a dive in the event of a real medical emergency. And if someone cares, I don't care that they care. In the event of the real deal, the boat is going home, and the rest of the pax can suck it up, basically.

I for one would be disappointed to miss dives, but the safety of another diver is more important, and I'll get over it. Of course if the victim refuses medical treatment at the dock, he might need medical attention a lot sooner than he thinks.


Bob

 

[mrfixitchapman]

Instead of after-dive snacks, how about an on-board Oxygen Bar?


Oxygen bar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems safe enough for recreational imbibers. Makes me wonder.

DC

 

[uncfnp]

Instead of after-dive snacks, how about an on-board Oxygen Bar?


Oxygen bar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems safe enough for recreational imbibers. Makes me wonder.

DC

I can see it now...."Spare O2"