agencies

[udtfire]

hey guys i was speaking to a friend of mine and i realized i need to change the way i am thinkinng about agencies and training
ford never taught anyone to drive and agencies dont teach divers instructors do.so i wish to thank all my fellow psd instructors for giving there time and talents to the art of psd and seeking a higher level as a trainer. so remember reguardless the agency some training is better than no training

Courage Through Knowledge and Skill Through Training

 

[Walter]

Agencies set the bar. All too often that bar is set ridiculously low.

Many folks, including instructors, believe instructors know more about diving and teaching diving than other divers and that agencies know more about diving and teaching diving than instructors. Neither of those is necessarily true, but it's what many believe. Instructors who believe this also believe the bar set by their agency is not something to rise above, but rather a target. They often believe teaching too much is worse than not teaching enough.

While I agree instructors can be more important than the agency, I also believe it is rarely the case. When I've observed instructors, I've almost always seen them follow standards to the letter. The agency is usually, in my observations, been much more important than the instructor.

By the way, Ford doesn't set standards for driving classes and they do not certify either driving instructors nor drivers, so your analogy is flawed. Now if you want to change your statement to, Ford never taught anyone to drive and SCUBA equipment manufacturers dont teach divers instructors do, you analogy would be spot on.

 

[udtfire]

to the non likeable anyway ( as you stated) thanks for the wasted post it added nothing to the issue and my point was lets not bash or point fingers but have the courage to look at ourself frirst ad how we can all work tgether all agencey and inst and diver alike to bring our public safety diver home cause when your dead does the card you carry matter just a thought.

 

[Walter]

Your point seemed to be to relieve the agencies of the blame for poor training. While some poor training is the fault of poor instructors, the majority of poor training comes from instructors who are doing the absolute best they know how. They have been let down by agencies who should know better, but have given them low standards anyway.

Since that was not your point and it was actually having everyone work together to make everyone safer, I'd strongly recommend raising standards (agencies' job), teaching far above standards until that is accomplished (instructors' job) and letting instructors know that the standards are not a target, but are far short of what should be taught (everyone's job).

 

[grumpie]

The nice thing about NAUI is they give you standards and then let you excide (spelling) them. My students are still doing swim skills beond being comfortable in the water. where we dive its both cold and dark.
grumpie.......

 

[ScubaDocER]

hey guys i was speaking to a friend of mine and i realized i need to change the way i am thinkinng about agencies and training
ford never taught anyone to drive and agencies dont teach divers instructors do.so i wish to thank all my fellow psd instructors for giving there time and talents to the art of psd and seeking a higher level as a trainer. so remember reguardless the agency some training is better than no training

Courage Through Knowledge and Skill Through Training

I am sorry udtfire but I have read your post and am not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

so remember reguardless the agency some training is better than no training

This has the potential to be a very dangerous statement. While exposing someone to various aspects of diving may pique their curiosity, partial training could be the harbinger of doom for many others. I commend your positive feelings and thoughts with regard to your PSD training. That last statement however should be reconsidered. Personally I believe that complete training is better than no training. Some training suggests that the full scope of what was to be taught has not been. This may lead to errors in judgment, misunderstandings in intent, and a lack of respect for the severity of key diving concepts.

Walters point was far from "wasted". While the agency may not directly teach the student about diving, they are responsible for the standards under which the Instructors are guided. The agency teaches the student through the Instructor. It is their (the agency) responsibility to ensure that they provide the highest quality education that they are able to so that they ensure competent and educated divers. If the agency fails to do this then they have failed in their mission. While the Instructor is obligated to at least teach to their agencies minimum standards, it is the agency that sets those standards. Raise the standards and you raise the minimum. Everyone benefits in the long run.

You stated that :

i realized i need to change the way i am thinkinng about agencies and training

In what way has your thinking changed? In what way would you like for everyone to work together? What do you think the agency needs to do to bring about change? What should the Instructors do?

 

[bridgediver]

I think I know what utd is getting at and perhaps you need to put it into the perspective that this is a PSD forum? (I could be wrong...). Many PSD teams do minimal training or recreational level training and call themselves "PSD". Nobody expects to come out of their OW training as a qualified commercial diver but some asume that this is virtually all you need to be a PSD. The uninformed veiw the "rescue diver" specialty that all the recreational agencies offer as what you need for PSD. Recently this seems to be getting blurred as I heard that PADI announced that they are now offering an "official" PSD class.
I hope they come out with an astronaut card soon because I've always wanted to be an astronaut and judging by how low and incomplete Padi's standards are I'm sure I could get my astronaut card within a day or 2.

 

[ScubaDocER]

I think I know what utd is getting at and perhaps you need to put it into the perspective that this is a PSD forum? (I could be wrong...).

I know of no educational diving entity that would support partially educating its students to become divers, no matter the forum. What perspective do you suggest I examine? I would love to hear from other PSD on the issue of being partially trained to assist someone versus completing their training. The premise of my statements had to do with the certify agencies being accountable for the quality of the Instructors they produce. Did you receive partial training? Would you trust your life to someone who felt that the little training they had was better than no training at all? I recognize that I am in a PSD forum, but this concept transcends different diving genres. The ability to produce competent, educated divers rests with the agencies ability to produce competent, educated Instructors and for said Instructors to produce competent, educated divers. Does that philosophical approach not belong in a PSD forum?

 

[bridgediver]

As I said, what may be considered "partial training" on here to be a PSD is taking sport diving training ONLY. It is generally accepted (but not widely) that to be a REAL PSD one must recieve training from a PSD AGENCY; not from any old scuba instructor that runs a shop or has access to a bunch of books. To learn properly (ie "complete" training) one should seek a PSD instructor that has both experience and is an active PSD himself as well as being aligned with a PSD agency - not padi, naui, tdi etc.
The sport diving training that the diver takes could be the most complete and best SPORT DIVING course out there but its a moot point if the diver delves into PSD without adequate PSD training.

I'm guessing that you're a doctor as this is what your forum name advertizes - could I be a doctor if I just take 1 or 2 anatomy classes? Even if they're the best anatomy classes?
I suppose I could call myself a doctor too but I wouldn't have very much skill, knowledge or credibility.
Unfortunately there are many "teams" out there with similar education (or lack of) that choose to call themselves "PSD"

Does that make sense?

 

[ScubaDocER]

What you are saying makes sense. What the OP said does not. There seems to be training that is unique to PSD that differs from recreational divers. I understand that. My response had to do with the concept that partial training is better than no training with regards to ANYONE's diving education or safety. I concur that one should seek an Instructor that can give you complete training in your field of interest. If taking sport diving training is insufficient to be a PSD and would be considered partial training then I would consider that incomplete training if you follow the logical all the way through. From a safety perspective then this partial training would not be better than no training at all. Just complete the training and the point becomes moot.

BTW, I am not advertising my profession. It is in my name and is a part of who I am but little more. I could have put PSD in my name but that would not be accurate. From your statement you would not want someone with a lack of education who calls themselves a PSD on your "team". This illustrates my point.