Agencies?

[decompression]

James, I might think that too, until I had all the history. I'm sure you are aware of AG's contribution to GUE and participation in WKPP. Where they gained immeasurable experience with sidemount and ultimately with rebreathers. 5thD-X and UTD have been around for many years, with JS and a very experienced core of contributors worldwide, they have developed their company. Still a small and personable operation. As you mentioned, there are some excellent concepts that other agencies are now adopting. Agreed, every agency isn't for every one. Those two worlds (CCR and SM) are filled with old school guys that are skeptical of anything different and that's just fine(I still look at things that way).I think it's a positive thing to look critically at something that is life supporting (thinking diver). I pass that on to my students but i hope the dont take my opinions as gospel and develop their own thoughts through logical thinking. It took many years(and fatalities) before we started accepting things like mixed gases and manifolds. I certainly wouldn't recommend something I didn't entirely know. To the OP, I know the GUE and UTD instructors (Infact, one is both) in your area. They will all give you quality training and advice. Again, feel free to pm any questions you may have. Safe diving.

 

[ucfdiver]

James, I might think that too, until I had all the history. I'm sure you are aware of AG's contribution to GUE and participation in WKPP. Where they gained immeasurable experience with sidemount and ultimately with rebreathers. 5thD-X and UTD have been around for many years, with JS and a very experienced core of contributors worldwide, they have developed their company. Still a small and personable operation. As you mentioned, there are some excellent concepts that other agencies are now adopting. Agreed, every agency isn't for every one. Those two worlds (CCR and SM) are filled with old school guys that are skeptical of anything different and that's just fine(I still look at things that way).I think it's a positive thing to look critically at something that is life supporting (thinking diver). I pass that on to my students but i hope the dont take my opinions as gospel and develop their own thoughts through logical thinking. It took many years(and fatalities) before we started accepting things like mixed gases and manifolds. I certainly wouldn't recommend something I didn't entirely know. To the OP, I know the GUE and UTD instructors (Infact, one is both) in your area. They will all give you quality training and advice. Again, feel free to pm any questions you may have. Safe diving.

Other than a deco harness for gas divers, what sidemount experience, specifically, are you referring to that AG gained while with the WKPP/GUE?

 

[TSandM]

UTD has not been around for very long, in fact. I know, because I was the person who coined the term "Unified Team Diving", when the Dive Matrix split from ScubaBoard, and we were looking for a name for a "DIR" forum that would be inclusive of GUE and the folks being trained similarly by non-GUE instructors. Andrew picked the term up and adopted it as the name of his agency. AG has been involved in diving forever, but the agency is very young.

You kind of have to know AG and Jeff to understand why the agency has gone the directions it has. I still think that, at the OW level, both offer good training and good education. For tech diving, you really need to know who you want to dive with.

 

[PfcAJ]

James, I might think that too, until I had all the history. I'm sure you are aware of AG's contribution to GUE and participation in WKPP. Where they gained immeasurable experience with sidemount and ultimately with rebreathers. 5thD-X and UTD have been around for many years, with JS and a very experienced core of contributors worldwide, they have developed their company. Still a small and personable operation. As you mentioned, there are some excellent concepts that other agencies are now adopting. Agreed, every agency isn't for every one. Those two worlds (CCR and SM) are filled with old school guys that are skeptical of anything different and that's just fine(I still look at things that way).I think it's a positive thing to look critically at something that is life supporting (thinking diver). I pass that on to my students but i hope the dont take my opinions as gospel and develop their own thoughts through logical thinking. It took many years(and fatalities) before we started accepting things like mixed gases and manifolds. I certainly wouldn't recommend something I didn't entirely know. To the OP, I know the GUE and UTD instructors (Infact, one is both) in your area. They will all give you quality training and advice. Again, feel free to pm any questions you may have. Safe diving.

What is this sidemount and rebreather experience you speak of? The Halcyon (fridge) and the RB80 are the only two rebreathers the WKPP has used, and we don't use side mount for obvious reasons (and if we did, it definitely wouldn't be that z-system nightmare). Citations, please. I'll be waiting.

 

[kathydee]

If you are in South Florida, as your information suggests, you are probably better off hooking up with a GUE instructor, because there isn't much UTD in Florida.

We have scheduled a GUE open event in So Fla very soon, at one of our new GUE facilities. One to several of our instructors will attend.

If you live in the neighborhood, it's a great way to learn about GUE.

Please come say hi. Everyone is welcome to dive with us, and bring all your questions.

If you'd like to join, just PM me for details.

 

[decompression]

Whew, fellas, I can feel the condescension. Seeing both your past posts on here and other boards, I'm pretty sure you are not fans of AG/UTD/equipment and that's fine. I am hesitant to continue, not wishing it to stream into the stage marking novel. What I've gathered from AG is from AG. I will make no citations or site specific examples to be picked apart, and you will likely say "because you can't". You are correct. That is from his experience, not mine. If you have experiences with AG at WKPP I would like to hear about them, I'm always looking to learn more. No flexing of muscles here. My mind is open.

 

[Adobo]

James, I might think that too, until I had all the history. I'm sure you are aware of AG's contribution to GUE and participation in WKPP. Where they gained immeasurable experience with sidemount and ultimately with rebreathers. 5thD-X and UTD have been around for many years, with JS and a very experienced core of contributors worldwide, they have developed their company. Still a small and personable operation. As you mentioned, there are some excellent concepts that other agencies are now adopting. Agreed, every agency isn't for every one. Those two worlds (CCR and SM) are filled with old school guys that are skeptical of anything different and that's just fine(I still look at things that way).I think it's a positive thing to look critically at something that is life supporting (thinking diver). I pass that on to my students but i hope the dont take my opinions as gospel and develop their own thoughts through logical thinking. It took many years(and fatalities) before we started accepting things like mixed gases and manifolds. I certainly wouldn't recommend something I didn't entirely know. To the OP, I know the GUE and UTD instructors (Infact, one is both) in your area. They will all give you quality training and advice. Again, feel free to pm any questions you may have. Safe diving.

I don't know what history you were told and by whom but from what I see here, some of the details are, to put it kindly, mixed up.

To keep this reply in context of the original topic... the OP has a legitimate question. Which is the better agency for his needs?

If he is looking for an agency that teaches the approach of how the WKPP divers dive (what used to be referred to as DIR), GUE is the only choice. I'm sure UTD's programs have some of these concepts but they have decided to go their own way which is fine.

There are very real pros and cons to each agency. A diver should not take for granted that one agency is interchangeable with the other. As an example, gear standardization is a key element in how GUE teaches divers to dive. That is, everyone in the team dives backmount, open circuit with the same bottom gases and deco gases. Deco bottles and stage bottles are all labeled properly. If gear, dive profile and procedure standardization is appealing to you, then one agency is superior to the other.

If you prefer to dive in a team that could comprise of an open circuit backmount diver, an open circuit Z-manifold sidemount diver, and a CCR diver, with some of the team's bottles labeled and others not with potentially having different deco requirements, then UTD might be for you.

---------- Post Merged at 11:22 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:12 AM ----------

Whew, fellas, I can feel the condescension. Seeing both your past posts on here and other boards, I'm pretty sure you are not fans of AG/UTD/equipment and that's fine. I am hesitant to continue, not wishing it to stream into the stage marking novel. What I've gathered from AG is from AG. I will make no citations or site specific examples to be picked apart, and you will likely say "because you can't". You are correct. That is from his experience, not mine. If you have experiences with AG at WKPP I would like to hear about them, I'm always looking to learn more. No flexing of muscles here. My mind is open.

Does AG have extensive experience diving with the WKPP? (Honest question here. I don't know.) I doubt he has been involved with anything related to the WKPP or GUE since late 2005.

From what I know of AG, he is an excellent diver. A lot of his students seem to have a high opinion of him. Unfortunately, that does not make his latest ideas on diving, such as sidemount, CCR and mixed teams, compatible with how the WKPP dives (what used to be referred to as DIR).

 

[decompression]

Adobo, agreed. I guess my information is inaccurate, could you fill me in on your involvement in GUE/UTD/WKPP? Id like to learn as much as I can, cheers.

 

[TSandM]

I know adobo has no association or experience with the WKPP, and neither do I. But both of us know that AG left GUE in 2005, and has not been involved in any GUE-sponsored activity since.

I don't want to open old wounds, or get into a personality-bashing thing. I've trained with Andrew. I learned a great deal from him and it was an extremely useful experience. I like him personally, too. We have differences of opinion on where he has taken his agency, but it's his agency to take wherever he wants to take it.

I'm not sure exactly what the OP was looking for when he posted that he wanted formal training. But I think Adobo's point is good, that if you want a very highly standardized system that will be identical no matter where you go or with whom you dive, GUE is that. If you prefer a bit more free-form approach with less stringent rules and more gear options, you might prefer UTD.

Personally, if I wanted to dive sidemount, I'd dive sidemount and go get my training from one of the really experienced sidemount teachers, like Rob Neto or Steve Bogaerts or Jason Renoux.

 

[Adobo]

Adobo, agreed. I guess my information is inaccurate, could you fill me in on your involvement in GUE/UTD/WKPP? Id like to learn as much as I can, cheers.

I don't understand. What could you possibly learn by knowing the details of my dive career?

You and I both know that my points are either valid or they are not. A dive resume doesn't really change that, does it?

But if you think there is something to be gained by knowing this information, then here goes..

re: UTD involvement
- I was in the first 5thd-x Essentials class.
- I was in the first 5thd-x Rec 2 class.
- I was the only student in the first "mini" that 5thd-x taught. It was a 1 day class. AG told me that this 1 day (drysuit) class was a new concept 5thd-x was launching. Soon after, I was in the first doubles mini.
- 5thd-x was not an agency, it was a "company" that sold gear and offered training. At first, the training offered was under the GUE banner. When AG left GUE, 5thd-x switched over to NAUI Tec. There were three people involved with 5thd-x that I was aware of. Joe, Delia and AG. Joe taught my essentials class.
- When 5thd-x went away (I don't really know how to characterize that), AG started up with Breakthru diving. That endeavor was either short lived or it was the pre-cursor to UTD. And as TSandM states, the name Unified Team Diving was borrowed from a forum that was in TheDiveMatrix.
- By the time UTD had their first ITC, I was pretty much completely switched over to GUE.

re: GUE involvement.
- I've taken enough classes and dive with enough GUE divers to know that GUE doesn't do sidemount or CCR.
- My cave 1 instructor in Mexico just wrote an article on Quest regarding sidemount. It's an interesting read.

re: WKPP
- I have no involvement or affiliation with the WKPP. I do however know that PfcAJ, who dives with the WKPP, posted this reply directed to you.


I don't know why any of that is important and what is to be learned from it. My point is simply this.. sidemount and CCR might be UTD's brand of DIR but it certainly isn't what is taught in GUE. If you want to know whether or not these concepts are compatible with how the WKPP dives, you can probably ask PfcAJ. Or you could simply deduce his opinion based on how emphatically he replies on threads related to those two topics.