Air?

[seahunter]

I accept your apology sneaky (can I call you 'sneaky' or would you prefer 'bastard'?).
You are certainly not talking about me because we don't charge for air at S2K. Clearly whether I sell air or don't has no affect on my business.

Actually mcrae, you can get generation of CO from an electric compressor if it has not been well-maintained. Poor maintenance will result in weakened oil resistance to heat and breakdown of the lubricant from the over-heating in an old compressor can produce CO.

A dive store run by the owners with no other staff is exempt from the CSA regulation?
Let's have two compressors with a small clean one for the employees and the other for the ungrateful public!
Dam Mike Harris!! He's screwed up the whole province. He's a diver and he better not come to my shop for a fill. I'll have a special tank waiting for him AND his buddy Koebel!!

Re-read your posts guys. This is getting ridiculous. Harris had nothing to do with Walkerton. Koebel is a public employee (paid by the municiplatity to do the job) and a criminal. Water is a public resource. Scuba is a private enterprise enjoyed by less that 6% of the public. Air quality is NOT a factor is diver safety based on the figures (thank you Puffer).

Jeez! Grow up and accept responsibility for yourself. The only thing the regular references to Walkerton does in this post is demonstrate very well that you CANNOT expect the government to protect you. If you think a law or a new regulation or gov't involvement is the answer to this non-problem, you are the problem.

Every new diver is told about air quality certs and to check them.

Check or ask for current air certificate. If it's older than 6 months, leave the store. It's so simple it's stupid!
When you go to a grocery store and the fish isn't fresh, you leave. 200 times more Ontarians die from food poisoning each year than from diving. I can't calculate how many more die from food poisoning than from bad air while scuba diving!

 

[seahunter]

Just for reference Chet, we use a late model Bauer K15 which pumps 14 CFM at up to 5000psi when new. Our latest check shows about 12 cfm which is perfectly normal. We do not pump past 4000 psi to reduce heat and wear.
Our Bauer filter system is rated for 50,000 cubic feet which is good for almost 70 hours. We change both the separator and the filter at 50 hours which is about every 7 weeks (we pump a lot of air). Our system has an automatic dump which ensures the water and oil cannot build up and get into the filter which would render it useless in minutes. Manual units must be manually dumped every 15 minutes which is often overlooked or forgotten as the compressor runs along and the owner gets busy.
The base system cost about $30,000. The banks (very large with 30 - 4500 psi/400 cubic foot bottles) cost another $18,000 with the fill station.
Annual operating cost is about $5000 (oil - $250; filters/separators/prefilters -$1500; hydro -$650; maintenance -$1000; air tests -$1500).
Air fills for certified divers are free!

Yeah! I'm makng a fortune on that investment!!

No air fill station is CSA approved. They wouldn't 'approve' a fill station because if there was a problem (and they know can happen even if the air test meets their standards), they'd be liable. The CSA simply produces standards. The dive store either meets them or doesn't. If the fill station has an air cert that shows the air meets CSA standards it's not 'CSA approved'.

Again, while this has been interesting, the entire topic has been a non-starter. There are dam few air quality-related diver accidents in North America. I don't see any reference to one occuring in the last 6 years!
I suppose we've managed after a week, 4 pages of posts and a bit of yelling to agree that divers should check the store air cetificate, that the store should test the air 4 times a year (twice the good ol' CSA recommendation), that a store shown to have poor air or poor fill station care should be reported publicly and most important, that we should all be careful out there because accidents while diving can happen (but not caused by bad air).

 

[eagleray2003]

SeaHunter you seem to very paranoid, always on the defensive of your shop.

When I relocate in the coming weeks the shop I will be dealing with has the certification of Z180.1 proudly displays it will show latest test results, will show compressor maintance records to anyone who asks.

 

[pufferfish]

"Only the paronoid survive"

 

[Butch103]

for giving us the details of your air oiperation. Gives some of us in the diving world an idea of the cost of a compressor setup. I understand yours may be larger than the smaller shops.

The only comment I willmake is that if you don't charge for the air than of course there is no direct return on your investment.

Give it away free and no profit.

However you are doing this not out of the goodness of your heart, but ataas a lost leader to intice people into the shop. And I suppose to reward your loyal clients. Sure, as you mentioned somewhere else some will just drive right past your shop to pay for air, but so is the life in business.

But you must be making money on sales of gear and lessons. ( I assume you are making money on these in some sort of combination) .

So in the end there is a return on the investment. Just not direct to the compressor.

 

[pufferfish]

To state bad air is "not" a cause of death or is a non issue is certainly not the case. Yes I agree that it is a minor issue with a few deaths discoverd every few years however with such a large "unknown" category and coroners in many juristictions just recording the death if the cause is not obvious as a drowning may lead to underreporting anywhere from zero to 145 deaths (.44x330). We simply do not know.

Yes we do need to keep things in perspective and I still am not losing sleep over breathing bad air from my LDS but I have lost some sleep typing on the board trying to determine if other Ontario divers are unknowingly at risk and it is clear they may be.

It is also very true that all the diver has to do is ask for that air certificate and if it is more than six months old walk out. Last night I asked a new AOW diver trained in the west GTA if she knew about air certificates.She had never heard of them but she did know the smell and taste test. She then asked me if I look at a certificate will I know what it means? Good question. I am waiting for a reply from a good friend who I refered to S2K for her basic open water last december to see if what she knows about air certificates. My guess is her answer will be the same as the girl above.

And that is the crux of the issue. Yes divers should take this responsibilty to ask for the certificate but they are NOT being taught this and therefore are putting themselves at risk of bodily harm by assuming the onus is on the fill station to show documentation of clean air tests. As things stand in Ontario now, a diver who is not aware that he or she should ask to see this certificate may get air from a shop that hasn't checked their air in a year (there is no regulatory body, industy or government, to check up on the required biannual testing) as a worst case scenerio or to a shop like Scuba2000 that does quarterly testing and posts the results on the wall, the current best case scenerio. Eagleray is correct in that a compressor log of all repairs is to be kept by law and after any major repairs the air retested. How many shops do this?

The current system relies completely on voluntary testing and compliance. If all divers knew the questions to ask we wouldn't have a problem as those shops that are not complying could be shut down. Can you give me a figure on the percentage of Ontario shops that over the last two years had regularly checked their air every six months? No because no one knows. I know you do Seahunter but what about all the other ma and pa shop in the province.

I would gladly accept as a solution to this problem as stated on the poll question a new regulation, YES a new law, that required all Ontario dive shops to do quarterly testing by an accredited lab and the results must be posted where the customer can see them. If a result is abnormal the law states the compressor is shut down until the air passes the test, period. No government involvment to check up but divers would also be taught this regulation in basic open water. I assume you would not have a problem with this as you already comply with this. If you start to waffle on this then I must question your true intentions of looking out for the safety of the Ontario diver.

Yes this would represent a new higher bar for fill station standards in Ontario. And like when in Toby when a large boating accident caused the standards bar to be raised and many charter boats went under for poor standards, I would hope this would be the case for fill stations in Ontario. We have fewer charter boats in Toby but those that remain are safer and more expensive yes. Think about it Seahunter if say a third of fill stations were forced to close for failing to test quarterly and maintain standards we might be left with four large fill stations in Metro. Lets assume you are one of those. You now have much higher volume of tank fills (and customers in your shop) and I come to your shop knowing you meet an acceptable standard. And if you charged for your fills as I feel you should and earn a fair return on your investment then maybe you could by a nice new Bauer Vertical compressor with constant six gas real time quantitative monitoring. I would much rather have four large profitable safe busy fill stations in Metro than a dozen where maybe half of those we don't know what standards they meet. There has to be a way to make money off air and ensure good high quality fills using the most up to date technology. Maybe the days of every mom and pop shop in Ontario having an out of date compressor which is poorly maintained just because that is the way it has been done should come to an end. I was diving in Panama a few years back and there were lots of dive shops but only about two fill stations. I saw one and it had a mother of a huge compressor with inline realtime monitoring and they shipped air all over the country but you know what they made money and provided good air. Maybe Scuba 2000 would become the only fill station in the GTA if thats how the economics played out with raising the bar. You get all the fills in GTA and I pay $10 a fill for a safe reliable fill. I just don't buy your argument that this is not possible to run a profitable high volume lastest technology fill station. Raise the bar and let the weak perish and I will drive 20km to a high quality fill if need be or maybe the LDS who was forced to shut down their compressor will just have tanks shipped to and from the shop like they do in Panama.

 

[pufferfish]

In Ontario scuba related fatalities are not routinely checked for CO either with COHb in the blood or a tank analysis. Therefore that 'unknown' category of 44% is wide open for investigation.
The coroner did say that because scuba related fatalities require specilized knowledge they are looking at having autopsies done only in those centres where that knowledge exists. As it stands now a scuba related fatality in Timbuktu, Ontario unless the cause is obvious or head office gets involved just gets written up a drowning of unknown cause. Having scuba investigations done (if this is setup) in designated centres with expert knowledge should help cutdown on this mystery category of 'unkown'.

 

[seahunter]

Jeez! And I was worried about my long posts Puffer!

Interesting perspective.
I haven't long to answer but will say that I think you overestimate the other divers. The desire to save time and a buck will not be offset by the promise of pure air. There is no perceived problem so why pay for a solution?

Obviously I'd have no problem with a regulation that required me to post my air certs and/or have my compressor log inspected. I DO have a problem with laws in general. If we invite any regulatory body in to establish such a law they will do so with glee. Having done that they will then make laws to govern every other aspect of the sport. That's the nature of government and beaurocracy. It's not a condemnation. It's just a fact. They want to remain in control, they want to grow, they want to keep their job, they want to demonstrate they are good at regulating things .. so on they go.
1. A law prohibiting diving alone.
2. A law requiring redundant air supply (octopus is not good enough).
3. A law prohibiting dives deepr than 60'.
4. Annual re-cert for all divers to be allowed to dive in Ontario.
5. Annual fitness test for regulators and BC's whether used or not.
6. A licence to carry and use compressed air cylinders.
7. Approved hold down straps in cars for compressed air cylinders.
8. A law requiring a surface support person on all dives.
9. A law requiring a dive flag even in lakes with no-boating restrictions.
10. A law requiring a dive plan be filed 12 hours in advance at the provincial Association for Scuba Safety (ASS for short) local office.
11. Fees for all the above to pay for the staff, offices and enforcement of the LAWS.
.....and on and on.

Do you want to be the author of such a nightmare?

What's wrong with the diver being his own Safety Association? Check the dam air certificate at your LDS!!!
How much did that cost?
Do you think that simple action is more or less effective than a law?

 

[GTADiver]

seahunter once bubbled...
7. Approved hold down straps in cars for compressed air cylinders.

Hey sea hunter some of these actually make sence. Do you sell anything to hold down the tanks in my car....I always was looking for something snazzy like that.

 

[pufferfish]

Seahunter, just for the public record and for all those GTA divers reading this thread:
Does Scuba2000 meet or exceed the CSA Z180.1 compressed gas standards which stipulates a CO concentration of 5 ppm or less in the fill?

This is what divers in GTA want to see displayed on the shop wall every quarter. PADI states a five star facility should meet the US standards or the local standards whichever is stricter. CSA Z180.1 trumps US standards of 10 ppm CO.

Can I start telling people Scuba2000 meets the stricter CSA Z180.1 standards every quarter?