American tourist dies while diving Cozumel caves.....

[DandyDon]

I'll try to answer or address as I think I can here and there...

I am a little late to this discussion.

I have some questions/comments....

1. I have still not seen any evidence to demonstrate that a single tank has extremely high levels versus all other tanks filled! I have seen data clearly showing once the temperature of the mineral oil exceeds its auto-ignition temperature, CO is produced. NOT JUST IN A SINGLE TANK! It is very atypical that no one else recieving fills from this company became ill. Who's tank was it? What was originally in the tank? If the tank had a high level of CO prior to filling, it would not have been found in filling the single tank.....This is why equipment is impounded and tested when a death typically occurs in the U.S. It is called liability, not speculation!

Last I heard they could not find a CO analyzer on the island to test the tank, yet again. Otherwise, the accident occurred outside of the oversight of the USCG, DOT, our courts and legal system, etc. - and as usual, not much came of it. Again: when you leave the US, you leave the US - so cover your ass.

2. Did the company who filled the tanks have an online CO monitoring system? When was it last calibrated? Was it in calibration? Was it installed correctly? Was it installed in the correct place?

I was in close correspondence with one of the local businessmen who helped make sure that that compressor had an Analox Clear inline CO unit after my CO problems there last year, and I have read reports from people more knowledgeable that myself who saw the units installed. Beyond that, who knows? I still checked every tank when I went back this year, as I always will, anywhere, from any compressor.

3. It has been claimed that CO (carbon monoxide) from a bad fill killed this person. Where is the evidence? Unless the tanks in question were actually measured using a certified laboratory for testing gas samples for oxygen, nitrogen (N2), carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide (CO2), moisture, and organic compounds. I personally have a hard time believing the cause of death due to carbon monoxide from a bad fill without additional physiological testing results from the body.

Reported autopsy.

I know people get a good feeling knowing they checked their tank for CO. Do you know that the monitor was calibrated correctly? Do you know if the monitor is still in calibration (it was a long plane fight, with reduced pressures and dramatic temperature changes)? Was the analyzer used correctly? Did you actually read the whole manual? Did you test your ability to analyze a blind sample? Does the "pocket" analyzer actually measures carbon monoxide or something else and is related back to a CO concentration? There is a lot more to testing than actually testing the sample. Just ask someone who was sitting on death row for 30 years that was latter cleared with scientific evidence......

Good points, all the way around. One needs to know his/her CO analyzer well, calibrate correctly, and use it correctly - even if bored because the last hundred tanks were clean. Depending on where you travel, it won't take nearly that long to get a reading on tanks. I did not get a reading on any in August in Coz, but our tanks did come from a different supplier. I still check, always, everywhere, etc.

Some companies are now claiming that their sensors do not drift enough to need calibrating. I still calibrate both of mine annually.

I do not want to suggest that anyone not buy a pocket analyzer or stop using the one they have. I only want full disclosure and an accountabillity.

Safe Diving

Thanks.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I am a little late to this discussion.

I have some questions/comments....

1. I have still not seen any evidence to demonstrate that a single tank has extremely high levels versus all other tanks filled! I have seen data clearly showing once the temperature of the mineral oil exceeds its auto-ignition temperature, CO is produced. NOT JUST IN A SINGLE TANK! It is very atypical that no one else recieving fills from this company became ill. Who's tank was it? What was originally in the tank? If the tank had a high level of CO prior to filling, it would not have been found in filling the single tank.....This is why equipment is impounded and tested when a death typically occurs in the U.S. It is called liability, not speculation!

Do you know anything about how fills are done in Cozumel? Do you know the percentage of nitrox fills compared to air fills? Nitrox isn't used as much as air and it isn't all that unusual for no nitrox tanks to go out on any given day. If a tank or two happen to go out one day they will be filled when they are returned. So this is how CO CAN BE PRODUCED JUST IN A SINGLE TANK. The tank belonged to the fill station. This occurred in Mexico, not the US. They do things differently there.

2. Did the company who filled the tanks have an online CO monitoring system? When was it last calibrated? Was it in calibration? Was it installed correctly? Was it installed in the correct place?

Yes. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.

Even if all the answers are yes, you will need an employee standing there and monitoring the readout and alarms or have the compressor wired so when the CO analyzer gets a positive reading the compressor automatically shuts off.

3. It has been claimed that CO (carbon monoxide) from a bad fill killed this person. Where is the evidence? Unless the tanks in question were actually measured using a certified laboratory for testing gas samples for oxygen, nitrogen (N2), carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide (CO2), moisture, and organic compounds. I personally have a hard time believing the cause of death due to carbon monoxide from a bad fill without additional physiological testing results from the body.

The evidence was obtained during the autopsy. There's only one way to get elevated carboxyhemoglobin levels.

I know people get a good feeling knowing they checked their tank for CO. Do you know that the monitor was calibrated correctly? Do you know if the monitor is still in calibration (it was a long plane fight, with reduced pressures and dramatic temperature changes)? Was the analyzer used correctly? Did you actually read the whole manual? Did you test your ability to analyze a blind sample? Does the "pocket" analyzer actually measures carbon monoxide or something else and is related back to a CO concentration? There is a lot more to testing than actually testing the sample. Just ask someone who was sitting on death row for 30 years that was latter cleared with scientific evidence......

CO analyzers are marketed and sold with a specific purpose in mind. It's doubtful they would be able to do this in the US if it didn't actually measure CO.

I do not want to suggest that anyone not buy a pocket analyzer or stop using the one they have. I only want full disclosure and an accountabillity.

Safe Diving

There's been as much disclosure and accountability as anyone is going to see. Unless you have some special authority that no one else does you won't get anything more.

 

[cruiser]

Has it been determined why Meridiano's air was contaminated with carbon monoxide since they have CO in-line filters in place?

 

[RubberDucky]

Don, I know that it is one of your crusades, and a good one too, but the idea that only a single tank was contaminated kinda sticks in my craw.

It shouldn't. I've been on a boat in Cozumel where all tanks tested ok except for one (all filled by Meridiano 87). Here are the ppm counts of the tank that was tested, shown directly from my ToxiRAE 3: Scuba tank with high carbon monoxide reading - YouTube

My other posts about this can be found here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cozumel/335384-tour-meridiano-87-filling-station.html

 

[Dirty-Dog]

There's only one way to get elevated carboxyhemoglobin levels.

This is simply not true. Smoking, and some hemolytic or inflammatory conditions can all cause elevated COHb levels, to varying degrees.

 

[Chris12day]

The autopsy report also stated elevated levels of carboxyhemoglobin were found in the blood.

Elevated does not mean lethal, it means higher than the average Joe!

"Read posts 62&63......." WSOPFAN

Post 62 and 63 are not a definitive cause of death, only anecdotal evidence,

"Do you know anything about how fills are done in Cozumel? Do you know the percentage of nitrox fills compared to air fills? Nitrox isn't used as much as air and it isn't all that unusual for no nitrox tanks to go out on any given day. If a tank or two happen to go out one day they will be filled when they are returned. So this is how CO CAN BE PRODUCED JUST IN A SINGLE TANK. The tank belonged to the fill station. This occurred in Mexico, not the US. They do things differently there." Dive-aholic

Please explain the how part for me.....


"Last I heard they could not find a CO analyzer on the island to test the tank, yet again." DandyDon

They need to send the tank for a complete air composition analysis....not a single substance. WHAT WAS IN HIS TANK. If the tank had high levels ot CO, it was the cause...if not, what was.

I still find it unrealistic only one person on the island got "poisoned" an no one else did.....

SAfe Diving

 

[Dive-aholic]

This is simply not true. Smoking, and some hemolytic or inflammatory conditions can all cause elevated COHb levels, to varying degrees.

Okay, let me rephrase. There's only one way to get elevated carboyxhemoglobin levels high enough to be lethal and have the coroner deem the cause of death carbon monoxide poisoning.

Elevated does not mean lethal, it means higher than the average Joe!

Read above.

Please explain the how part for me.....

They need to send the tank for a complete air composition analysis....not a single substance. WHAT WAS IN HIS TANK. If the tank had high levels ot CO, it was the cause...if not, what was.

I still find it unrealistic only one person on the island got "poisoned" an no one else did.....

What more do you want me to explain?? If only one nitrox tank had been rented the day before (I know at least one was), and it was filled once returned it could have been contaminated. Nitrox tanks are not rented out as much as air tanks. Many days the fill stations don't rent any nitrox tanks. Some days they only rent a few. The group was renting one nitrox tank each day for a few days before the incident. If no other nitrox tanks were being sent out by the fill station, or the one tank that was returned each day was filled alone, it is not only realistic, it is probable.

 

[WSOPFAN]

This was posted in the Cozumel forum and IMO is highly relevant to this thread if anyone wishes to respond either here or there.

According to medical personnel involved in the cave diver fatal incident, and the autopsy, and other Medical proffesionals there is little to suggest that the "reported" conclusions are correct.


First off, the only positive way to test for CO Poisoning is a spectroscopic examination of the blood for Carboxyhemoglobin content with levels above 50% which are usually fatal (heavy smokers have 10%). Such a test was not done in this autopsy. Going further there are many, even in the Cozumel medical establishment, that find sloppiness, laziness, and pervasive errors in autopsies performed by unqualified doctors. The use of the term CO indeed may have meant excess CO2 from the "homemade" rebreather, or any other number of translation problems. To be sure, autopsies in Cozumel are a very inconclusive reference.

Yesterday we did a review of the procedures at Meridiano and found that they have experienced several CO warnings over the last 6 months and their alarm level is 7 PPM. They say that their reaction, is to shut down the compressor, check for heat, and change all filters. The air for all nitrox tanks passes through one Analox CO analyzer and into what is like a massive holding tank. It is inconceivable that just 1 killer tank could come out of Meridiano's hundreds that they do each day. On the most unlikely chance that one tank did have CO, it could only have come from Meridiano's practice of making nitrox from the partial pressure method which is mixed after the In Line CO detectors.

In summary, I just don't believe that a tank delivered by Meridiano had any part in this and I also don't believe that the cause of death was CO.



Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers

 

[Dirty-Dog]

Okay, let me rephrase. There's only one way to get elevated carboyxhemoglobin levels high enough to be lethal and have the coroner deem the cause of death carbon monoxide poisoning.

According to what Mr Dillehay posts, this has not, in fact, been shown to be a CO-related death.

 

[WSOPFAN]

According to what Mr Dillehay posts, this has not, in fact, been shown to be a CO-related death.

Just because I posted a quote from another thread means nothing here. The rules for posting here require a certain level of proof and given the fact that it was not posted here with proof, does NOT conclude anything. The articles posted here and the first hand accounts are going to be accepted as the story unless and until PROOF is posted otherwise.