Anxiety Management
- Thread starter jvanostrand
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The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
I agree with you Steve, but John wrote that they had planed the dive well. Don't know whether you are cave trained or not but this is not just a stupid mistake, that is breaking a basic rule of cave diving.... They had planed do do something dangerous.
I've done some stupid stuff but I never planed to do something stupid.
---------- Post added January 12th, 2016 at 03:36 AM ----------
Pete, there is a difference between making a mistake and knowingly plan a dive you were told not to do in cave class. If an owd plans a dive to 200 feet on air, would you call that a mistake too? What kind of plan is this?
You wouldn't do a circuit you don't know, would you?
I've done some stupid stuff but I never planed to do something stupid.
---------- Post added January 12th, 2016 at 03:36 AM ----------
Pete, there is a difference between making a mistake and knowingly plan a dive you were told not to do in cave class. If an owd plans a dive to 200 feet on air, would you call that a mistake too? What kind of plan is this?
You wouldn't do a circuit you don't know, would you?
Littlerayray
Contributor
I don't have cave training but when I get anxious or excited or find I'm working harder then I should I stop let my buddy know I'm ok and close my eyes and concentrate on taking deep slow breaths I don't move and usually after about 40 seconds I'm feeling better and have my breathing under control
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
On thirds, sure. I've never broken that rule. HOWEVER, they do things a lot differently in Mexico. There are far more 'trust me' dives happening among normally cautious divers than I care to think about. It's shallow, there are stupid numbers of exits because it is so shallow, and the locals telling you how you should do a particular dive can be quite convincing. It's easy to be seduced.
I remember doing a dive in twin (?) where I KNEW I was on the the way out since the numbers had climaxed and were now descending, but damn... I was getting close to hitting thirds. Thankfully, I saw my cookie right at thirds where the line was teed so I didn't have to turn, but just keep exiting. The experience made me ponder over this very question. It's incredibly easy to armchair quarterback any decision, but we weren't there. We have no idea about all the vectors inherent in that decision, nor can we. In other words, I hate the attack mentality we often get into. It's a bit of over the top hysteria that inhibits people from telling the unvarnished truth. As a group, we need to lighten up a bit. Most all of us have those moments that we're glad the public doesn't know about. That is, IF you're honest with yourself, you do. My dive and my dive etiquette evolves with me. I'm a far, far better diver than I once was. You can judge me by my past mistakes or you can judge me as I dive now. Either way, I am not going to try to be 'cave-ier than thou'. I'm not going to spread gossip by the caves edge... "Oh, did you read what John wrote? OMG, OMG!" It sickens me that so much of this goes around. I won't distrust or trust anyone until I dive with them. Don't expect it to be an envelope pushing dive on our first excursion either. If that goes well, we can try another. Or not. There's a lot more I feel like saying on this subject, but it might merit it's own thread.
Here we go again. A tec instructor calls his unknown circuit dive well planed and I'm the a-hole. You are sicked by me spreading gossip? What gossip, Pete? You're a spinmeister. I brought up a valid point and all you do is missrepresent what I said to defend your buddy.
You are right in that I have seen first hand dive plans that the guide is trying to give you a good experience, and cover large amounts of cave,plus some are goal driven to see a particular landmark. Guides do these day after day and they become redundant, and over simplified. But, the person being guided frequently is taken on a trust me dive, in systems with unique navigation markings. I have bailed on a couple dives laid out by guides because it became a case of visual jumps etc and I felt the dive was no longer safe.
It isn't arm chair quarterbacking if specifics are laid out which includes things like visual jumps, busting air protocols etc. I agree with attacking a person is counter intuitive,but pointing out something that is wrong,where the OP may not see that is perfectly acceptable,if done in a non-demeaning manner. I haven't seen any attacking in this thread, and if so, I would hope moderators would address anything that would resemble that. There are many people out there lurking and they can benefit from posts that point out something that was done incorrectly and why, which is one of the reasons why I think people tune in.
I am not a cave diver. Not my thing. But as I read boulderjohn there were no guides. There were very few markers. He was counting on a map and his planning. I know I raised an inner eyebrow when he went past thirds not sure if he was going in the right direction. At least that is how I read it. Perhaps there were no side lines or anything so there was only one way to go but he had doubts. Not judging. Just noting my reaction.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Oh the drama... and the irony. I didn't comment on a thing you said, so it's impossible to have 'misrepresented' you. I know I didn't call you an a-hole and I did not defend John even though I am guilty of not piling on in some dramatic condemnation of his past mistake.
Do you really think he doesn't feel remorse over that dive? Do you really think he wasn't taught an abject lesson in gas planning? I think it's good to make the point that you wouldn't have done the dive that way. I did. I think it's good that you posted that you didn't think that it was a very good plan and/or execution. Then let it go. It's up to John to learn the lesson: not you. Trying to back him (or me) into a corner does what for thoughtful communication? Yah, that's a trick question, isn't it? I'm completely tired of all the cave drama and politics.
If you weren't there, then you weren't there. You can't possibly know all the mitigating circumstances involved. I have chosen my guides well when I dive the cenotes. If you want a guide that won't tolerate you doing a 'trust me' dive, then PM me and I'll give you Natalie, aka Mighty Mouse's contact info. Even then, my first dive with Nat was barely a cavern dive. They got progressively more serious as we went. Was she testing me or was I testing her? Both. I don't/won't trust most Mexican guides, just as I don't/won't trust most American guides or instructors. Trust in a cave is something that's earned or lost in the cave. I've heard/read things that makes my eye brow arch. I've heard/read things that impress the hell out of me. But then, trust in a cave is something that's earned or lost in the cave. I don't care what the world thinks about you. I won't make that decision until we talk person to person and even then I'll with hold any decisions until after we dive.
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