Apeks coming out with sidemount harness

[Bison Ravi]

Pretty much all sidemound systems are similar so yes, they copy on each other. It's priced the same as the razor, so yes expensive but people pay for them.

Why is it the worst knock off ever?


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[Bennno]

Pretty much all sidemound systems are similar so yes, they copy on each other. It's priced the same as the razor, so yes expensive but people pay for them.

Why is it the worst knock off ever?

They don't copy each other, Apeks copied the Razor. It's a bad copy imho because it didn't copy the neat double bladder but copied the bad dunp valve placement of the Stealth. It's also more expensive than the Razor even though a knock-off should be cheaper. Considering the price, I really do think it's the worst rig I have seen so far.
I have yet to hear what's good about the rig from anyone.

 

[Bison Ravi]

I respect your opinion, and really as I don't dive one or the other it doesn't affect me at all.

I'm just curious about everything new.

That being said as it doesn't have the same kind of wing at all, not the same weight system, not the same sliding d-rings, not the same way to attach the wing to the harness.... I really don't see how it is a knock off except that it is a wing with a harness like many other systems.

And it is advertised at 700eur online with the sidemount pouch so actually 20usd cheaper than the razor.

At first sight to me I'd prefer only one exhaust valve, on the right. Mostly to limit failure points but the center one is low profile and covered so I'd be surprised if many people would really damage it restrictions. Most people have way more **** danglin than the few millimeters that valve adds.

For my personnal diving a double bladder is overkill; If I needed the redudancy I'd dive dry.

I'm not convinced about the sliding d-rings with bungees, but maybe they do work and don't require changing the bungees often as that would be a pain.

The prototype I saw had plastic clips for the weight system, the final version seems much better.

I like that the top and bottom of the wing is attached and will probably use grommets in the same way to attach my wing and weight strap to my harness on my own rig.

I wonder if they use normal nuts or sex bolts or something else to attach to the grommets. My ideal would be something low profile that doesnt require tools.

I hope the wing stays low profile even inflated and that most of the lift is in the lumbar region as that's my preference.

Can't wait to hear more about this system!

 

[Patoux01]

They don't copy each other, Apeks copied the Razor. It's a bad copy imho because it didn't copy the neat double bladder but copied the bad dunp valve placement of the Stealth. It's also more expensive than the Razor even though a knock-off should be cheaper. Considering the price, I really do think it's the worst rig I have seen so far.
I have yet to hear what's good about the rig from anyone.

The dump valve is not the same place as the Stealth... (how many cases of torn out dump valves on a Stealth do you know of, not someone claiming "that will break"?)

So what's good about it:
- dump valve is protected and accessible
- the material used is very though
- they made a try at sliding rings
- it should get a really good network in terms of dealers
- the rings in the back seem pretty nice, don't remember having seen that shape but I don't know all the rigs there are

Points of concern to me are:
- how does the cell behave underwater
- how well the sliding rings work and if they can hold a load


For the rest, I won't change my Stealth anytime soon anyway.

 

[Sidemount_Stu]

The dump valve is not the same place as the Stealth... (how many cases of torn out dump valves on a Stealth do you know of, not someone claiming "that will break"?)

So what's good about it:
- dump valve is protected and accessible
- the material used is very though
- they made a try at sliding rings
- it should get a really good network in terms of dealers
- the rings in the back seem pretty nice, don't remember having seen that shape but I don't know all the rigs there are

Points of concern to me are:
- how does the cell behave underwater
- how well the sliding rings work and if they can hold a load


For the rest, I won't change my Stealth anytime soon anyway.

I haven't had a play with the Apeks harness yet, but i was chatting with Garry Dallas over here in the UK about it... it seems he had quite a lot of design input (He's not employed by Apeks, but is an ambassador for them) into this SM harness system. I do know that Garry spends "most" of his time Cold water (drysuit) SM diving with steel and/or Ali cylinders.... with that in mind, I would be very surprised if he hadn't quite rigorously tested the cylinder attachment points with all variations of mainstream cylinder. I do know from talking to him that the wing has been well designed to stay very low profile during use, even when full.

As I said, i haven't had chance to dive it yet, but am hoping to give it a go..... i do however think that the cost is too high and that is probably the single biggest reason i'll be sticking with my Xdeep Classic for the forseeable future! (I'd like to change to the new Tec Wing for the Xdeep, but i think the wing only upgrade is a stupid price!)

 

[karstdvr]

Pretty much all sidemound systems are similar so yes, they copy on each other.

There isn't really much innovation, just tweeks on a system that has been around quite awhile.

 

[Sidemount_Stu]

There isn't really much innovation, just tweeks on a system that has been around quite awhile.

Is that not how all continuous improvement works? Ground breaking innovation happens very seldom, rather improvement and tweaks are continuously made over time, often by different manufacturers, and each adds something to the previous incarnation....

a copy as you put it, is an exact replica of something, with no improvements, no changes, no re-design.... the Apeks harness system has many differences and what the manufacturer would consider "improvements" and in this way it is a "unique" design. It may share similarities, but then all SM harnesses of this category, share similarities, in the same way that many sets of Fins, or masks, or BCD's are very similar, this does not make them all copies of each other!

 

[karstdvr]

Is that not how all continuous improvement works? Ground breaking innovation happens very seldom, rather improvement and tweaks are continuously made over time, often by different manufacturers, and each adds something to the previous incarnation....

a copy as you put it, is an exact replica of something, with no improvements, no changes, no re-design.... the Apeks harness system has many differences and what the manufacturer would consider "improvements" and in this way it is a "unique" design. It may share similarities, but then all SM harnesses of this category, share similarities, in the same way that many sets of Fins, or masks, or BCD's are very similar, this does not make them all copies of each other!

If you look there hasn't been any significant change. The harness/wing configuration came from Dive Rite, and the butt plate was a creation of Bill Rennaker- nothing has really changed from that. Because everyone copies each other, things like side inflation and hard attachment point at the hip (versus a butt plate) have been forgotten. Amazing how the problems that people try hard to engineer away have already been solved, they have been forgotten in the history of side mounting.

 

[Sidemount_Stu]

If you look there hasn't been any significant change. The harness/wing configuration came from Dive Rite, and the butt plate was a creation of Bill Rennaker- nothing has really changed from that.

That was my point... it's a continuous evolution, not a copy. At the beginning, and for the more commercial world, there were bigger challenges that needed resolving... which they were... from then on... it's continuous devlopment, which are small changes, where each person and/or manufacturer have their own ideas on what's improvement... shape of the D rings, Position and Profile of OPV's, Wing shape and connection etc etc... it's not copying, it's each manufacturer doing what they believe to be improving on an established design.... and then the buying and using public choose what they like and don't like, they vote with their hard earned cash.... Just because it's not a "step change" in design, doesn't mean it's a copy... it's an evolution of an established design....
Every car you buy has 4 wheels an engine, and the layout is pretty much the same.... it's the small details that change between manufacturers... not because they're all copying each other, but because the basic design works and why re-create the wheel.... each car manufacturer add bits and pieces of design that they believe are the best... the public choose with the cash again.... it's a standard operating model, that works well.

Once in a blue moon, someone comes a long and creates a step change in design.... but that is every now and again.... not ever release of an item!

 

[Bennno]

So what's good about it:
- dump valve is protected and accessible
- the material used is very though
- they made a try at sliding rings
- it should get a really good network in terms of dealers
- the rings in the back seem pretty nice, don't remember having seen that shape but I don't know all the rigs there are

I don't see any improvements. The wing seems to be almost the exact same shape of the Razor but lacks the redundant bladder.
I don't see a point in having dump valve on your lower back. It's the worst position for a dump IMHO.
The Razors material is though too.
Sliding D-rings are 5$ accessories.
The rings are round instead of square, so what.

This "wing on top of the weights" design gives you a horrible profile when you actually need some weights. You might as well go back to a twin set, you wouldn't have a worse profile.

If that not a lazy copy what is?

@Stu, did you ask Garry what his imput was?

If you what the trim weight pockets, this thing is going to cost you almost a 1000 usd... if that should really sell, I will try to get into the sm rig business and design my own rig.