Are trim and buoyancy fundamentally related?

[HantsDiver]

Few are claiming all divers need to do mid water weight remove/replace or BC ditch and don in perfect trim. Just that good trim and buoyancy will increase their enjoyment and safety, and so are key points of early training, and a way to increase what you learn from and enjoy about later classes. Things like mid water ditch and don in rough trim are good tests for advanced divers and leaders as a show of comfort in the water and with their gear.

I don't know anyone who has ever had a course where they had to take their wing/bcd off in mid water. I can't see it being useful at all.

 

[scubadada]

Few are claiming all divers need to do mid water weight remove/replace or BC ditch and don in perfect trim. Just that good trim and buoyancy will increase their enjoyment and safety, and so are key points of early training, and a way to increase what you learn from and enjoy about later classes. Things like mid water ditch and don in rough trim are good tests for advanced divers and leaders as a show of comfort in the water and with their gear.

Ditch and don is interesting. If you have a weight belt, you are heavy and your BC is light. If you are weight integrated, you are light and your BC is heavy. I did both a bottom and a midwater ditch and don during my solo cert. The midwater was much easier than the bottom. Soon thereafter, I had a drift line wind around my yoke that I could not take care of while diving solo. A midwater ditch and don took care of the problem quickly, and relatively easily.

Perhaps @CharlieRogers simply has never had to do this manuveur, it can be quite useful.

 

[Nasser]

I don't know anyone who has ever had a course where they had to take their wing/bcd off in mid water. I can't see it being useful at all.

Actually it's not unheard of in tight wreck or caves to remove back mounted cylinders and push them through small openings and swim through until there is room to put them back on. It's not really an issue if you're diving side-mount - or rather, it's easier to push your cylinders though the opening without having to actually take off the rig like you would in back-mount,

But this is the Basic Scuba DIsccusions forum so please ignore me.

 

[outofofficebrb]

Why is it alarming?

The idea that you need to be able to do all skills in trim whilst neutrally buoyant before you can do any more courses is wrong in my opinion. I don't dive with ditchable weight but if I did I can't think of any situations where I'd feel I needed to take my weight belt of in trim and put it back on again. Nor can I think of any situation where I'd do so with my bcd/wing. Those are party tricks - and quite frankly they are grossly stupid things to do. There can be no justification for any instructor telling students to do them in my book.

Let's make an assumption that lot's (more than half) of all divers are perhaps not in perfect trim with perfect buoyancy on all dives. And let's assume they dive because they enjoy it. Do the accident and fatality statistics indicate this is a huge problem? I'd say they did not. Which means people are enjoying theirselves safely. Hence why it's not the end of the world.

You are addressing that being trim is nice, not as important, or required. I agree. It's ideal, but not the end of the world. But the OP of that statement in the original thread (not the OP of this thread) is also saying that buoyancy is not important and that it's a party trick. I think it's the foundation of diving. Otherwise, we have runaway ascents, crashing to the bottom, etc....tip of the iceberg.

If one would never have to remove BCD or wing and replace, why is this a skill required in OW certification? @Nasser this is related to basic scuba

 

[RayfromTX]

You are addressing that being trim is nice, not as important, or required. I agree. It's ideal, but not the end of the world. But the OP of that statement in the original thread (not the OP of this thread) is also saying that buoyancy is not important and that it's a party trick. I think it's the foundation of diving. Otherwise, we have runaway ascents, crashing to the bottom, etc....tip of the iceberg.

If one would never have to remove BCD or wing and replace, why is this a skill required in OW certification? @Nasser this is related to basic scuba

Actually Charlie made this statement

snip
And don't stress the neutral buoyancy and trim stuff. In openwater, it's a nice party trick but not the most important thing in the world. And the course might make you better anyway. As you develop and dive more it will happen. Diving with more experienced people will help. It's become a big thing on the internet as a marketing ploy - the reality is in open water is generally doesn't matter at all.

in this thread Advice: hitting the ground running, or biting off more than I can chew?

which led to an argument with Pete which led to the creation of this thread. This thread is already two pages longer than the thread from which it was born.

 

[gfaith]

I don't know anyone who has ever had a course where they had to take their wing/bcd off in mid water. I can't see it being useful at all.

huh? PADI has stop this training? Don't get entangled where you can't see it...

 

[HantsDiver]

huh? PADI has stop this training? Don't get entangled where you can't see it...

Padi have never made their instructors get students to remove bcd's in midwater, to my knowledge.

You have had a shocking day when you have lost your buddy and you have an entanglement on your valves and you can't reach it to sort/cut. I'd say if that ever happens then take of your bcd to save your life and then take up golf. In solo diving there is a tiny tiny tiny justification for it. On an open water course it's proposterous.

 

[boulderjohn]

If one would never have to remove BCD or wing and replace, why is this a skill required in OW certification? @Nasser this is related to basic scuba

About a decade ago, a SB participant who was a representative of his agency on the WRSTC said that the primary purpose of the exercise is task loading--giving the student a challenging assignment that requires confidence and competence while under water. In a buddy situation, it is not a skill you would normally ever do. Without a buddy, it can come in very handy to fix a variety of gear issues.

As for doing it in midwater, the PADI standards do not mention it, and I am sure the overwhelming majority of instructors demonstrate it on the bottom and have students do it on the bottom. I demonstrate it midwater, and I give students the option to do it either way. Most do it mid water, since by then they are comfortable doing all skills in mid water.

 

[HantsDiver]

About a decade ago, a SB participant who was a representative of his agency on the WRSTC said that the primary purpose of the exercise is task loading--giving the student a challenging assignment that requires confidence and competence while under water. In a buddy situation, it is not a skill you would normally ever do. Without a buddy, it can come in very handy to fix a variety of gear issues.

As for doing it in midwater, the PADI standards do not mention it, and I am sure the overwhelming majority of instructors demonstrate it on the bottom and have students do it on the bottom. I demonstrate it midwater, and I give students the option to do it either way. Most do it mid water, since by then they are comfortable doing all skills in mid water.

Not directly. But you should not lose control of buoyancy, body position or depth. If you are honestly telling me your students are doing this without a change in body position I'll hand back my tech 1 card and come and do an open water course with you.

 

[boulderjohn]

Not directly. But you should not lose control of buoyancy, body position or depth. If you are honestly telling me your students are doing this without a change in body position I'll hand back my tech 1 card and come and do an open water course with you.

Where does it say that in the OW class standards?

My students will remove and replace their BCDs in a swimming pool that is 11 feet deep. Most will do it in mid water. Sure, their fins will hit the bottom at times, but they don't crash to the bottom, and they don't go to the surface. It's not so hard. I will be glad to show you.