Are you still imperial?

[Wreck Ranger]

Here in the US we still use the imperial system, however I have been slowly converting to the metric system. My Dad spent a year and a half in Isreal diving the Red Sea, and he dove the metric system over there and loved it. He has converted so I probably will too.

 

[Arnaud]

gedunk once bubbled...
Didn't we have a satellite or something recently, that basically didn't work because of a improper units conversion?
:bonk:

It was the Mars Orbiter in 1999. Not really a conversation error, more the lack thereof. Some at Nasa were using imperial and other metric. They didn't convert their work :bonk:

 

[lanun]

i use both - got my OW, etc in the states but now back home where the temperature reading is 'warm'.

for distance/depth i now use metric, for temperature i prefer imperial, i guess because i still couldn't quite relate to 28C and what that means as far as being suffciently insulated underwater.

now if only i have a dive gauge that let's me use imperial for temperature and metric for depth, i'd be in hog heaven

and yes, i do have the 2 system SPG.

seriously though, when first making the conversion, i kept my instruments on imperial and mentally translating to metric ... now what is 84 feet again in metric and geez i hope the instructor doesn't spring an underwater quiz on what the current pressure is ...

 

[Nudi]

Now that this thread has clearly demonstrated that no-one can make a SERIOUS argument that the imperial system isn't far inferior to metric... I'll sum up a few thoughts:

1. Having two systems running around can cause confusion and miscommunication. This is a very real safety problem in diving.

2. Not that we Americans aren't the center of the universe, but I think it is up to us to conform on this one. Really now, let's step out of the stone age.

3. This transformation will never happen in American SCUBA as long as the certifying agencies keep teaching in imperial units. We have to demand that PADI and the rest of em get on the ball and go metric once and for all, everywhere.

 

[Walter]

Nudi,

Where did you get the idea it was settled? You missed this entire thread.

 

[Arnaud]

Walter is right.

And I don't see any settlement of the issue any time soon.

The only potential change in a somewhat remote future will result from the market. Business and trades globalization implies standardization (the ever pressing needs to reduce costs and increase profits). The metric system being the standard in the entire world outside of the US, it could reappear in the US at some point. Not government imposed. Strictly resulting from a good and sound business approach, a la Henry Ford. And that, my friends, would be a very American solution to the end of the imperial system.

 

[Nudi]

Walter, Arnaud,

The idea that it's settled was tongue in cheek, clearly it isn't settled. And I totally agree that the solution will have to be market driven and not government imposed.

As for the market though, who is the MacDonald's of scuba diving if not PADI? I'll try to make my point: Producers of dive computers will manufacture whatever we the consumers demand, whether that's feet or meters or furlongs, PSI or BAR or Mars atmospheres. It doesn't take any innovation or cost on behalf of the producers to use any arbitrary unit you could think of. No problem. A big part of the problem as I see it is that new divers are taught to use imperial units when receiving basic open water training in the US. This, in my humble opinion, starts them off on the wrong foot. After they get used to feet and PSI, and especially after they purchase a set of imperial instruments, it's more difficult to change to metric. Human nature resists change.

So to clarify my stance, I don't think PADI (and the others) are solely responsible for the imperial problem. Ultimately the fault lies with us, the consumers, who put up with it. I do think that PADI, etc. are in a position to play a key role in the solution simply by changing their curriculums. As you point out, basic economics dictate that their incentive to change must be driven by consumer demand. When I stated we should demand ... that's what I meant. If certifying agency A doesn't do metric, we can go to certifying agency B who does. Remember that PADI, etc. are simply businesses without government authority, and we are their customers of our own free will.

 

[Arnaud]

Nudi once bubbled...


A big part of the problem as I see it is that new divers are taught to use imperial units when receiving basic open water training in the US. This, in my humble opinion, starts them off on the wrong foot. After they get used to feet and PSI, and especially after they purchase a set of imperial instruments, it's more difficult to change to metric.

Nudi, I don't know where you're from, but I don't think that Americans are happy with imperial because of their diving agency...

My point on the economy eventually pushing for a switch from imperial to metric was not related to the diving industry. With the expansion of Asian markets like China and India, and the consolidation of the European markets, there is a certain likelyhood that one of those days, the weight of the US market will become more relative on a worldwide basis.

As a general rule, major manufacturers are not keen on customizing their goods. They'd rather impose one standard; it's cheaper. That's why, for instance, the European market is attractive: where US exports had to comply with 15 different local standards and norms, they now have one set of rules for 15 countries.

And since metric is the standard for the rest of the world, there is a certain likelyhood that those manufacturers would some day decide that it would make their life much easier and their bottom line much fatter if they could use one uniform standard from R&D to manufacturing to actual selling on a worldwide basis...

 

[Nudi]

Nudi, I don't know where you're from, but I don't think that Americans are happy with imperial because of their diving agency...

I'm from San Diego, California. I think Americans are happy with imperial because they're used to imperial. They're used to imperial becuase that's what they're taught from day one. Within the context of scuba diving, the agency is your primary teacher on day one. This would be the most pain-free opportunity to make the transition, again within the limited context of scuba diving.

Your points on general globalization in industry are valid. But there's a difference here. I don't think that producers of dive instruments will ever stop making products that read out in one unit or the other because it's cheaper to produce only one version. In a digital product such as a dive computer there is practically no added cost in having the units user-selectable, and in fact this is the growing trend. Just like you can set your mobile phone to display in English, Spanish, French, Chinese, Swahili... you'll be able to set a modern dive computer to read out in imperial or metric. But I'll bet you most Americans will still set their instrument to imperial. Why? Because that's what they're used to and comfortable with.

The key point that you made is that industry is trying to standardize because dealing with multiple units, standards, etc. is problematic and therefore costly. This is true. But in the context of diving safety, the problem does not manifest itself as a production cost to manufacturers, but rather as a safety issue to the diver. Maybe if open water certifications came with a warranty, PADI would change it's product because paying for dead divers would become expensive. Again, tongue in cheek, but you see my point?

 

[Arnaud]

I do, Nudi, but I have a hunch Walter is not going to agree that metric is safer.

I definitely don't think that the diving industry will change unless the whole country has changed. And it won't happen any time soon. That was the point I was trying to make.

You and I are basically saying the same thing, but we seem to be in the minority on the board. That's okay, the rest of the world is with us.