Arrogance and humility among divers

[Steve_C]

Anything with a uniform will attract a certain number of people who are in love with the uniform and think it makes them look cool or tough or ... . Me I tolerate dive gear. Its job is to let me stay underwater for a while. If I could rent portable gills and leave all the dive gear home (except my camera and something to protect my skin from critters) I would.

I have done some of the behaviour that was described by the OP as what could be seen asarrogance, but in my case, nothing could be further from the truth.

Two quick examples:

I am a vacation diver. I am also retired and living on a pension. Unfortunately it is not uncommon to go a year or more between dive trips. As a result, my air consumption the first couple days stinks! After a couple days, it gets better and by the end of a trip, I am often among the last back on the boat. When this happens, and I mention it, it is not because I am arrogantly bragging about being the last on the boat. It is mentioned because I am so happy to see things get back to what I consider "normal". Although some may interpret it as arrogance, in my case, I see it as exuberance.

The other example often occurs when discussing places where I have dove. Yes, I have dove in a lot of really cool places. Many of those places are what some might consider "bucket list trips". So what some people might hear as "I've been to Fiji, Socorro, Isla Guadeloupe, etc." what I am trying to say is that I was lucky enough to find a LDS that was run by someone who loved to travel. He organized some very cool trips and over the years I was fortunate enough to have been along with them when they went on some of these trips.

I am not giving everyone a free pass by any means. Of course there are people out there who are arrogant. (There are even one or two here on ScubaBoard for instance who like to pass off their opinion as though it is fact and hate it when someone dares to question their statements.) All I am saying is that sometimes enthusiasm can be misinterpreted as something else.

The question is not whether you have been to a cool place or ten, but how that enters the conversation. If I ask somebody where they have dived and they give some examples, that is fine. But what happens after that. Are they only interested in what they have to say but not interested in other's experiences? Do they not care about what anybody else has to say? When I say, that was a nice dive we just did, and they say well it was ok but you should have been diving with me at 500ft in the Red Sea with the King of Saudia Arabia in my brand new $5000 wetsuit. Then not ok. How, why, and when things are said and not said is often more important than the actual content.

 

[northernone]

I experience the looks and comments about the age of my kit on a regular basis. The last four years we have been putting the wife through med school on my income alone as she was not eligible for a grant and as a result of this I have only had a small amount of money to spend on leisure activities. All my gear has been purchased used and a fair bit of it is over fifteen years old. On my recent deep cert my instructor didn't rate my computer because he hadn't ever seen one like it and didn't understand how to use it. It was only 10 years old!

Sounds like my kind of diving! Glad you've come up with ways to get time underwater.

One of my greater annoyances are those who are going off about the latest and greatest piece of kit they own and how superior it is. I started diving on gear triple my age, and some of it hasn't gotten any newer over the years. Let 'em look!

...I wonder if being arrogant or narced is harder to notice in one's self.

Cheers,
Cameron

 

[kelemvor]

Except the arrogance.

It was worst when I was considering diving and had just started. I ran into it at one of the LDSs, where the employee was not taking seriously my questions about gear since I had not completed my certification.

I am tempted to tell you you were lucky. I had what I believe is a worse experience. An LDS that was happy to answer my questions about gear and then push to sell me the most expensive stuff they had. Fortunately, I didn't have the cash to buy all my gear up front. What I did buy that day has since been replaced.

Now I cringe when I walk into an LDS and see these pre-picked kits sold as a package. They usually include something decent and a lot of junk.

Hubris is bad. Seeing new or uncertified divers as marks is also bad.

 

[2airishuman]

Seeing new or uncertified divers as marks is also bad.

I'll reply in another thread.

 

[gypsyjim]

I experience the looks and comments about the age of my kit on a regular basis. The last four years we have been putting the wife through med school on my income alone as she was not eligible for a grant and as a result of this I have only had a small amount of money to spend on leisure activities. All my gear has been purchased used and a fair bit of it is over fifteen years old. On my recent deep cert my instructor didn't rate my computer because he hadn't ever seen one like it and didn't understand how to use it. It was only 10 years old!

For years after I got back into diving I did not bother purchasing anything but prescription mask and fins, being content to rent whatever was available.
Eventually I realized that this time around, I was not going soon drift away from the sport as I had earlier, so I gradually purchased some used, mostly rental, gear, and when my 2 teens wanted to learn, I purchased the rental gear that they trained in.

My current "kit" fits within no-one's particular style, or idea of "ideal", being a mix of used BP/W's, well worn and faded discount wetsuit (if in cool water), and either the Kracken DH regulator, or a long hose, bungied set up, depending on my desire.
My training is a mixture of Y, PADI, GUE, and SDI Solo, and I believe in picking and choosing what works best for me, trying out various techniques and set ups, to see what makes sense for me.

If someone wishes to judge, or look down their nose at me for these choices, I will be happy to dive with those who are not such Elitists.

 

[Bogtrotter]

Any hubris is also amplified with the post-dive high when some of the more gregarious personalities really start to get going! Beyond that I have little tolerance for it- as the saying goes real knowledge teaches humility while arrogance just reflects ignorance.

 

[Hoag]

Anything with a uniform will attract a certain number of people who are in love with the uniform and think it makes them look cool or tough or ... . Me I tolerate dive gear. Its job is to let me stay underwater for a while. If I could rent portable gills and leave all the dive gear home (except my camera and something to protect my skin from critters) I would.


The question is not whether you have been to a cool place or ten, but how that enters the conversation. If I ask somebody where they have dived and they give some examples, that is fine. But what happens after that. Are they only interested in what they have to say but not interested in other's experiences? Do they not care about what anybody else has to say? When I say, that was a nice dive we just did, and they say well it was ok but you should have been diving with me at 500ft in the Red Sea with the King of Saudia Arabia in my brand new $5000 wetsuit. Then not ok. How, why, and when things are said and not said is often more important than the actual content.

Yup I agree whole heartedly. That was precisely my point. Sometimes enthusiasm can be misinterpreted.

 

[drbill]

The OP certainly does not reflect my experience over 55 years of diving. Certainly I saw some of it early on when diving was often a macho activity, but over the years most of the divers I've encountered were eager to learn and positively share their experiences.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What is it about the diving culture that leads to this sort of hubris?

I don't think it's the diving culture so much as simple human nature ... recreational activities tend to bring out the best and worst in people, and it usually boils down to personality. In other words, an arrogant person is going to be arrogant no matter what they're doing ... and the same applies to the humble person. I've met way more of the latter than the former in scuba diving. I think most of us have ... it's just that you tend to notice the ones whose personality traits set you off more than you do the ones who pleasantly blend in with their peers.

Some folks seem to think they've "earned" the right to be arrogant ... assuming that their experiences have provided them with knowledge or skills that somehow entitle them to look down on those with less experience or skill than they have. Often the assumptions are based on arbitrary things like number of dives, years of activity, or simply an association with a particular agency or organization that they believe to be "better" than the ones used by others. But that mentality says more about them than it does those they're disparaging ... and it does little other than make them appear boorish or ignorant. But some other divers may have more legitimate concerns ... such as a concern for the safety of their fellow divers ... and just do a poor job of expressing their concerns in constructive ways, which is self-defeating since it causes people to tune out anything useful they have to say. And some are just into bragging ... those types can sometimes be entertaining as long as you don't take them seriously.

I found that the higher up you go on the "experience" level, the more of this you see. Cave divers can be among the worst, although to be fair I've met an awful lot of wonderful people in the cave diving community. But I also see a lot of nasty shop politics, agency in-fighting, and downright contempt for non-cavers in that community ... and it makes me glad I don't live in that culture. Maybe it's because cave diving requires such a commitment to skills, equipment, and risk-mitigation that it brings this out in more people than you'd tend to see in recreational circles.

But regardless of where it comes from, what gets lost in that attitude is that it's still diving ... something we do for fun. No matter where you dive, how you dive, or how long you dive, it's just a recreational activity ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[stuartv]

I feel fortunate not to have encountered much arrogance. Some, but not much. Either it's not as prevalent as you make it sound, or I'm oblivious, or both. I think I tend to tune out people who start talking at me about themselves, whether it's about their diving or anything else.

Also, is it arrogance, ego, testosterone, or what? I don't know. And is it "the diving culture" as you put it, or is this sort of thing common in other sporting endeavors?

I feel like I've seen it way more than I wanted to. Occasionally, from a recreational diver. Mostly, though, from tech divers I've been around. People who make snide remarks under their breath "oh, they must be real divers, check out their snorkels." Or just, "effing recreational people." That kind of thing really rubs me the wrong way.

I will never forget the 3 (recreational) guys on a day boat I was on once. They made a point of setting themselves up right next to the entry point and being the first ones in the water. After the first dive, I observed them to be fist-bumping each other and commenting to themselves "first ones in, last ones out." Such arrogance! And completely ignoring the fact that they were last out because they hung out on the 15' hang line until everyone else was out. I got in the water right after them and when I came up to do my safety stop they were already hanging there at 15'. But, hey, they were indeed the first ones in and the last ones out. And mighty proud of it.

I do think "the diving culture" is a little worse, in this regard, than other sporting endeavors I have experienced (mainly, various forms of motorcycle riding and racing, and shooting sports). I feel like there is a reason behind it, too. It seems to me that scuba is unique is how much opportunity it affords for people to hide behind their keyboards and behind "liability".

In motorcycle riding or racing, arrogance is easily called out and either backed up or laid to rest. The stopwatch doesn't lie.

In scuba, it seems to be pretty rare that someone would be called out and actually shown to "have it" or not. How many times have I seen posts on SB that were some form of "if you were allowed to have that knowledge, you would already have it"? In other words, refusing to share information with someone because they should learn that when they take the XYZ Class and, until they do that, they don't need that info. After they take the XYZ class, they will know it. So, "I" am not going to tell you because that would somehow make me liable for whatever you do with that info. And similar arrogance about things like how deep or air consumption or buoyancy control or many other things where the person is never going to be called upon to actually demonstrate their claimed or implied accomplishments. "I just do xyz this way. Blah blah blah" but never with a a video of THEM actually doing it and making it look easy the way they imply. There are, of course, some exceptions. There are clearly a few people on this board that can back up any perceived arrogance they might display - and they post the videos to prove it. But, they are far more the exception to the rule and overall it seems that is FAR less common than in other sports I have experienced.