ascending with unconscious victim

[lanun]

i need help to think this throuh a bit.

1) empty air in own bc, control ascend using victim's bc
2) empty air in victims's bc, control ascend using own bc
3) control ascend using own bc first till empty then control using victim's bc
4) control ascend using victim's bc first till empty then control using own bc
or some other combination.

i think it should be #1 because then i only worry about one set of bc while ascending, and when at surface, get the victim bouyant (after the hard work getting 'em off the bottom) and then get myself bouyant. while ascending, since one hand is holding the reg/chin of victim and the other across holding the victim's inflator, the victim would be more 'snugly craddled' with both hands as opposed to only having one arm slung across the victim if using my own inflator to control ascend.

so, what do some of you do/practice/teach ?

i haven't completed my rescue class in ow yet (last saturday's session cancelled due to unfortunate incident in my instructor's family). my instructor told me what the agency teaches but said in reality you might improvise anyway.

my gazillion pool drills has been using 1&2. fyi i dive wet / single al80 mostly.

 

[Big-t-2538]

I would suggest using your own BC to control the ascent....make sure you are safe and not putting yourself at risk.

If during the ascent, you for some reason lose control of the victim, and you are using their BC to control the ascent, you immediately have to correct yours. Second, you know your BC works, you don't know the condition of the victim's BC. Also, there should be no reason to have to touch the victim's BC until you get to the surface unless for some reason it is rapidly filling with air and you can't get it dumped. If that is the case, and you can't control the ascent, let the victim go.

Also, once you are on the surface, inflate your own BC first. Then worry about the victim. It is easier to work on/with someone if you are properly bouyant in the water. Keep in mind that when performing a resuce, you never want to have a 2nd victim.

 

[norcaldiver]

I agree. You're trying to help them. If you put yourself in a bad spot, then there is a risk of 2 dead divers. Dump theirs, and use yours. On top, get yourself really bouyant, then get them bouyant by dropping their weight. You really shouldnt' have to touch their BC.

 

[MikeS]

The best answer depends on if they’re still breathing and how deep they are and how long they’ve been down.

If they’re still breathing you have more time; the key is to make sure the regulator stays in their mouth as you slowly/safely ascend. In addition, if they’re breathing the risk of lung over expansion is reduced and a slow rate of ascent is appropriate to allow them to off gas.

If they’re not breathing, the clock is running! You want to get them to the surface as quickly as possible without harming yourself.

lanun once bubbled...
(after the hard work getting 'em off the bottom)

If it’s hard work, you’re doing it wrong! If they’re on the bottom, they’re negatively buoyant. First, add enough air to their BC to get them neutral. Now they’re neutral, you’re neutral, it should take a minimal fining effort, to start up.

norcaldiver once bubbled...
I agree. You're trying to help them. If you put yourself in a bad spot, then there is a risk of 2 dead divers. Dump theirs, and use yours. On top, get yourself really bouyant, then get them bouyant by dropping their weight. You really shouldnt' have to touch their BC.

I disagree. You always want them to be slightly positive and yourself slightly negative. That way if you have to release them, they’ll go to the surface rather than sinking back to the bottom. And you’ll go down, till you add more air, rather than shooting to the surface.

With a little practice it’s easy to alternate back and forth, release air from your BC then theirs, always staying slightly negative so that only your gentle fining is causing you to rise. The key is to stay ahead on dumping air so together, your slightly negative, requiring gentle fining to ascend. Once you loose control and start to rocket to the surface, it’s almost impossible to regain control, simply let go. They should go to the surface, allowing you to regain buoyancy control.

Mike

 

[Diver0001]

<snip>

I disagree. You always want them to be slightly positive and yourself slightly negative. That way if you have to release them, they’ll go to the surface rather than sinking back to the bottom. And you’ll go down, till you add more air, rather than shooting to the surface.

With a little practice it’s easy to alternate back and forth, release air from your BC then theirs, always staying slightly negative so that only your gentle fining is causing you to rise. The key is to stay ahead on dumping air so together, your slightly negative, requiring gentle fining to ascend. Once you loose control and start to rocket to the surface, it’s almost impossible to regain control, simply let go. They should go to the surface, allowing you to regain buoyancy control.

Mike

Mike has it right. If you get it right, then you should be able to control the ascent by making youself negative on the bottom, using the victim's bcd to get the ascent started and then you just need to dump air from his bcd on the way up. The positions vary from agency to agency. The BSAC trains the ascent face to face and PADI trains to get behind or under the victim and hold his tank between your knees and his reg in his mouth. There is something to be said for both ways. In either case the only inflator you should need to control is the victim's (unless you're really deep, of course) and the only thing you'll need to do is dump as you ascend.

Obviously as Big said if he's OOA or something and his bcd isn't working then you need to improvise. IN this case you'd need to get under the victim and float him to the surface, which is much easier said than done. Another disadvantage to this is that if you lose your grip on the victim then you'll drop him whereas with the first techique you're less likely to drop him because he's positive and if you *do* drop him he'll go to the surface, as Mike said.

Also, I wouldn't dump the weight until you get to the surface. An unconscious diver should always be considered alive and an ascent is always best when controlled. An uncontrolled ascent can also lead to you sending the victim to the surface and then having difficulty locating him again after you ascend. For example if conditions are rough. That's time wasted and you don't have time to waste if you're assuming that the victim is still alive.

R..

 

[MHK]

lanun once bubbled...
i need help to think this throuh a bit.

1) empty air in own bc, control ascend using victim's bc
2) empty air in victims's bc, control ascend using own bc
3) control ascend using own bc first till empty then control using victim's bc
4) control ascend using victim's bc first till empty then control using own bc
or some other combination.


so, what do some of you do/practice/teach ?

.

Part of the reason that we dsitribute our equipment along the lines that we do is so that in the event of an unconscious diver rescue you have access to information, and the ability to rescue the unconscious diver.

For example, many diver's use the console that holds the SPG, the computer and compass. That is a fairly common piece of gear. However, the problem then becomes that you have all the information you need on one console, generally running off of your left side. The left hand controls the BC in terms of bouyancy and adding or dumping air. If you have a diver that is unconscious, and you have your depth/time on your right arm you can facilitate the rescue, and have access to critical information about depth and time, without having to use your left hand. Accordingly, you can then use your left hand to dump air from your suit/bc and then unconscious diver's bc.. If you are in the proper rescue position, ie; you will be behind the diver using your right hand under his arm holding his regulator in place, your left arm you can add/vent his BC to control bouyancy..

Hope that helps, also if you check out www.fifthd.com we have a few video's of rescuing an unconscious diver and it may compliment what I wrote.. Sometimes in written form I have difficulty breaking down the skill, I'm much better IRL ;-), so hopefully the video will help as well..

Let me know if you have additional questions..

Later

 

[MikeFerrara]

The PADI text recommends using your own BC to control the ascent. That doesn't mean dumping the victems before starting your ascent though so you still may need to vent theirs on the way up. All this assumes the diver is nearly neutral. We also know that it's bad practice to use your bc to lift heavy objects. The risk to you being that if you let go you'll be overly positive. The risk to the victem is if you let go they drop back to the bottom. There also may be situations where you don't want to make a direct ascent to the surface like in an overhead (real or virtual). I think the bottom line is that it depends on the equipment being used and the situation. I know that doesn't give a definite answer to the question but you need to practice it and see what works. Even many recreational divers may be very heavy. I think the ideal is if both you and the victem are neutral. The concern here is the complexity of managing both devices. There are real advantages though and the complexity can be taken care of with a little practice.

 

[pt40fathoms]

..

 

[Walter]

Every rescue is different.

To be effective as a rescuer, you need to be able to think on your feet. A rescue is a dynamic process.

You should practice various methods so you'll be prepared to deal with different situations.

Many things are left out of some rescue classes. If bringing up an unconscious victim, I'm going to look to see if there is water in the mask. If there's none, I'll proceed with the ascent. If there is water in the mask, I'll remove the mask prior to beginning the ascent. If there is water in the mask, this can be forced into the nose and mouth by expanding air on ascent. If the regulator is in place, I'll hold it there, if not I do not replace it.

I disagree with positioning yourself behind an unconscious victim. I realize it can be an effective position, but I believe I have more control and better feedback on the victim's condition with a face to face position. I watch gauges, but I also watch the victim's face. The transition from face to face to towing is smoother than from behind to towing. The transition from the under leg lift to towing is perhaps smoothest of all. It is also a very effective lift.

 

[devilfish]

Has anyone ever lifted an unconcious scuba diver in full gear off the bottom?