Backing off from technical diving

[TSandM]

I think a lot of folks probably go through a similar evolution to what we did. You learn to dive, and at first, you're gas limited, so deco isn't an issue. Then you get better and your SAC rate goes down, and around the same time, you buy bigger tanks. All of a sudden, deco MAY play a role in limited your dives. When it does, you obediently shallow up and eventually go home . . . but eventually, you start thinking, "Hmm . . . my computer keeps giving me more no-deco time as I go up; what if I incur just a LITTLE bit of deco, and it clears on the way up?"

If you are pushing limits just a wee bit, and you have the skills and experience that you're not going to end up in a panicked rush to the surface because you forgot you had to have the GAS to do the time, you're probably going to be fine. Even if you have an event that causes you to abort your deco, as long as you control the ascent, you'll probably be fine. But the further you push, the more serious the consequences of doing it wrong are -- and there comes a point where it's probably a good idea to have somebody else evaluate how well you will do when the excrement hits the oscillator, as it will inevitably do.

I don't think everything in diving requires a class. But entering into obligatory decompression has ramifications that I think many people just don't know enough to think about . . . chief among them, the gas required to do the deco AND to deal with problems.

 

[DevonDiver]

Dale, it's got nothing to do with any self-interest as an instructor, or some inexplicable 'comradeship-driven' desire to line the pockets of my peers...but everything to do with having day-to-day experience with real divers making that, very real, transition to more advanced diving levels.

Whilst I do appreciate the financial constraints that many divers operate within, I don't feel that compromising quality training, especially in advanced diving activities, is compromise that has any true value.

As for funding... I've been a full-time instructor in S.E.Asia since 2007. I pretty much live on $50 a day and have done for years. Getting training and equipment to further/continue my own diving has been incessant struggle... it was a slow process. I benefited from that, despite the frustrating pace... because my experience grew in line with my training. Progressive and gradual. At times, my experience well exceeded the c-cards I held. I never accepted an excuse to justify that my experience alone warranted exceeding the limits of the diving I was qualified to do. Plain and simple... self-discipline, patience and recognition that proper training keeps me safe.

I understand you have kids to feed. Maybe the OP does too. What support do those kids get if the father gets himself killed or injured trying to teach themselves advanced diving?

I sold my nice car, my stereo, my iPod and almost everything else to fund my training. I don't have the latest 'smartphone', nor a 'tablet pc'. I don't have cable TV or a high-speed broadband line. I ride the bus for 6 hours from home to the dive area... I carry my heavy dive kit (even though I've got bulging disks)...I work when I'm sick and tired. I go for weeks, even months, without seeing my partner because I can't afford bus trips back home on rare days off between courses. When my shoes split, I glue them back together. When my shorts tear through being worn thin, I sew them.

I don't skimp on training.

I might be lucky because my partner accepts the lengths I go to for diving. If it were a mere 'hobby' or 'interest', then I doubt that I would get that support. She sees the lengths I go to... what I sacrifice... and accepts that it's an obsession for me. She also values that I stay safe - so I've never had an objection to getting training, even when I've literally had to scrape together loose change to fund taking a course.

Where there is a will, there is a way... the difference between you and I is simply that I don't accept 'short-cuts' as "the way".

 

[pocky21]

From the perspective of somebody who is in the very situation you guys are talking about - that is, about to take technical courses but having to scrounge change and sell family heirlooms to do so, I will say this:

Before I moved to Florida last month, my choices were pretty darn limited. There were no "tecreational" instructors, and there was only one tec instructor - whom I did not trust with my training. Nobody taught me how to use an SMB or properly set up a backplate or anything. I had to learn EVERYTHING from clipping a bolt snap to setting up a doubles rig by myself. I spent hours upon hours at 15-30' in a local mudpit trying to get my buoyancy and trim dialed in just right - and I still don't have it perfect in doubles. I went into light deco obligations (3-5min) at times, and didn't think much of it with over half my gas remaining in the doubles. In comparison to the people I dove with in my area, it was hard not to think I was the baddest-ass diver on earth.

Then a few individuals moved to my area who had been properly cave and tec trained - their trim was spot on, they were calm and collected, and they made it look like they hadn't a care in the world while underwater. They asked for dive plans, they drilled on every dive, and they brought a mentality that I had never been exposed to. What seems like a calamity at the OW level didn't phase them a bit - even when I was, in all honesty, pretty stressed out...they just dealt with the problem and moved on. Every dive I would walk away thinking to myself "THAT is what good diving actually looks like", and it was then that I became thoroughly convinced that there is no replacement for the proper experience and exposure that a seasoned instructor can offer you.

Does that mean I'd never be as good as them if I kept pushing limits unsupervised? Of course not! BUT, by the time you figure in the time off, travel expenses, air fills, etc. that it would take me at the rate I was going just "wingin it", I think the training will be far more economical.

I see it a lot like having a workout plan - sure you can put together plans you found online, buy your own equipment from online guides, do X reps for X times for X days...but when you hit a sticking point or plateau, what are you going to do? Most people hire a personal trainer. Hell, that's even assuming you make it that far without blowing out a knee or otherwise wrecking your body. My trainer would nip bad habits in the butt as they formed, and would point errors out to me if he saw another gym member using bad form or doing something stupid (which was pretty often). He drilled me on foundational aspects of fitness like balance and flexibility - stuff I probably never would have bothered with on my own, and I still consider every moment under his counsel to be well worth the money spent.

I'm with DD on this one - I'll pinch a dime out of two pennies, but I won't skimp on training.

 

[DaleC]

If you are pushing limits just a wee bit, and you have the skills and experience that you're not going to end up in a panicked rush to the surface because you forgot you had to have the GAS to do the time, you're probably going to be fine. Even if you have an event that causes you to abort your deco, as long as you control the ascent, you'll probably be fine. But the further you push, the more serious the consequences of doing it wrong are -- and there comes a point where it's probably a good idea to have somebody else evaluate how well you will do when the excrement hits the oscillator, as it will inevitably do.

I don't think everything in diving requires a class. But entering into obligatory decompression has ramifications that I think many people just don't know enough to think about . . . chief among them, the gas required to do the deco AND to deal with problems.

I agree with this and have bolded what I think is an important point. People are different. Some quickly default to formal education to advance while others are comfortable doing their own initial leg work. The question is simply when the move to formal education occurs (which I am not against in any way). I'm just more comfortable with self study up to a point.

Pocky, I like your analogy to a personal trainer. However, until quite recently, most people believed they could achieve a certain degree of fitness without one. Now you see people making new years eve resolutions and hiring them day one more for motivation and face book status than the need for education. They spend a lot of money... and then quit when the novelty wears off. Hey! kinda like some taking tech training.

I'mnot against anyone taking training to improve their game when they need it. I am against formal training as a crutch, ego stroke, false sense of security or treadmill.

Let's be honest. How many peole do you see taking tech training who have not yet attained cardiovascular fitness or a necessary reduction of the ego. How many are truly comfortable taking a leadership role in diving. How many are intuitively resourceful and how you claim the last point if you insist on being taught every little point in diving.

This thread could also be titled "Backing off from OW diving"; in which people discuss why they are no longer diving. Someone like me would suggest it is because there is such a push to certify anyone with a credit card, promoting the fun safe aspects and down playing the negatives (which there are for some). Instead of everyone rushing out to become a certified diver, the suggestion would be to spend more time skin diving, to see if you like being in the water and to develop some water skills.

Now, one can pick apart that analogy all day and find the differences between the two activities or just accept it for what it is, a general analogy. What I do know is the people who spent more time skin diving would be more comfortable and would also be more likely to continue diving past 1 year.

 

[Abdullah]

From the perspective of somebody who is in the very situation you guys are talking about - that is, about to take technical courses but having to scrounge change and sell family heirlooms to do so, I will say this:

Before I moved to Florida last month, my choices were pretty darn limited. There were no "tecreational" instructors, and there was only one tec instructor - whom I did not trust with my training. Nobody taught me how to use an SMB or properly set up a backplate or anything. I had to learn EVERYTHING from clipping a bolt snap to setting up a doubles rig by myself. I spent hours upon hours at 15-30' in a local mudpit trying to get my buoyancy and trim dialed in just right - and I still don't have it perfect in doubles. I went into light deco obligations (3-5min) at times, and didn't think much of it with over half my gas remaining in the doubles. In comparison to the people I dove with in my area, it was hard not to think I was the baddest-ass diver on earth.

Then a few individuals moved to my area who had been properly cave and tec trained - their trim was spot on, they were calm and collected, and they made it look like they hadn't a care in the world while underwater. They asked for dive plans, they drilled on every dive, and they brought a mentality that I had never been exposed to. What seems like a calamity at the OW level didn't phase them a bit - even when I was, in all honesty, pretty stressed out...they just dealt with the problem and moved on. Every dive I would walk away thinking to myself "THAT is what good diving actually looks like", and it was then that I became thoroughly convinced that there is no replacement for the proper experience and exposure that a seasoned instructor can offer you.

Does that mean I'd never be as good as them if I kept pushing limits unsupervised? Of course not! BUT, by the time you figure in the time off, travel expenses, air fills, etc. that it would take me at the rate I was going just "wingin it", I think the training will be far more economical.

I see it a lot like having a workout plan - sure you can put together plans you found online, buy your own equipment from online guides, do X reps for X times for X days...but when you hit a sticking point or plateau, what are you going to do? Most people hire a personal trainer. Hell, that's even assuming you make it that far without blowing out a knee or otherwise wrecking your body. My trainer would nip bad habits in the butt as they formed, and would point errors out to me if he saw another gym member using bad form or doing something stupid (which was pretty often). He drilled me on foundational aspects of fitness like balance and flexibility - stuff I probably never would have bothered with on my own, and I still consider every moment under his counsel to be well worth the money spent.

I'm with DD on this one - I'll pinch a dime out of two pennies, but I won't skimp on training.

Unless the tech "badge" itself is what you are actually looking for, what you really need is an experienced mentor to show you good techniques and provide feedback as you develop new skills. Most technical divers are quite willing to pass on the knowledge they've acquired to a switched on diver as a way of growing the tribe. It appears from your post that there are some potential mentors in your area now. You don't have to rob the kids' college fund to buy classes to be a better diver.

The places you need certification are where nobody knows you - that great wreck that you've only read about that sits at 65 meters for example. The local operator will likely want to see some sort of independent proof of you tech knowledge for that no matter how good a diver you are. But until then, you can educate yourself, refine your in-water skills, and develop advanced diving techniques under the tutelage of local divers who possess the skills you would like to attain.

 

[boulderjohn]

There is a practical problem to educating yourself, with or without the help of a Mentor, until the time comes when you really need the card. In order to get the higher level card you needd from every agency I know, you have to go through the courses leading up to it.

I started with one tech agency, and I went through the first three levels of tech certification with them over a long period of time. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I had no choice but to switch agencies. That agency had a relatively reasonable crossover policy, so I did not have to repeat too many courses in order to get my certifications with them up to the level they were with my first agency, but it still took quite some time. My earlier training made it easier for me to go through the steps, but I still had to go through the steps.

Then a took a bunch of courses from that new agency before making the unavoidable decision to leave it and switch to another agency. Fortunately, I went back to my original agency, which meant I only had to go back to my old highest training level with them in order to continue. Had I gone to another agency, I would have had to start from scratch.

If you get great training from a Mentor (but no cards) over a period of years and then find out you need a trimix card to go further, when you go to get that trimix card, you will probably discover that you will first have to take the introduction to technical diving course and then go through all the steps that you have already gone through on your own. That is roughly what I had to do when I switched agencies, and I suspect it will be even harder if you walk up to an advanced tech instructor and say, "Please put me in your advanced trimix class without making me go through all the courses before that. A friend has shown me all that stuff, so I don't need to take those classes. Don't worry about your agency's policies--you can make an exception for me."

 

[claymore]

Talking about pushing the limits I know an instructor who would literally ride her computer at the NDL. She would hit the limit at one depth go up a few feet run that limit out go up again ect. until she surfaced. This Instructor had also been bent at least on time before.

 

[waterpirate]

I think most agencies, even if it is not in print leave it up to the individual tech instructor to determine whether or not a punter is elegible for tech training based on " must have x or equivalent experiance to be demonstrated and discussed on demand ". It is also at their discretion to tell a punter " yes you have x, but I will not train you any higher untill you demonstrate or do or log x ". Personally I found a instructor that had a well documented reputation of telling punters no. When I got told yes it made me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Eric

 

[boulderjohn]

I think most agencies, even if it is not in print leave it up to the individual tech instructor to determine whether or not a punter is elegible for tech training based on " must have x or equivalent experiance to be demonstrated and discussed on demand ". It is also at their discretion to tell a punter " yes you have x, but I will not train you any higher untill you demonstrate or do or log x ". Personally I found a instructor that had a well documented reputation of telling punters no. When I got told yes it made me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Eric

Being eligible to begin tech training is one thing. To be eligible to step into the middle of the program and get into the advanced level classes without going through the earlier classes is another. Try going to GUE and telling them that you want to take Cave 2 because you had a friend teach you everything that is in Cave 1.

To be more specific in the case I described above, I went to a TDI instructor and said that I had the rough equivalent of their regular normoxic trimix class through another agency. I wanted advanced trimix. Fortunately, I had completed TDI Intro to Tech, Advanced Nitrox, and Decompression Procedures long ago. On that basis, I was accepted into the normoxic trimix class, which I finished quickly, and then went on to advanced trimix. There would have been problems if I had not had those earlier classes.

 

[flots am]

Talking about pushing the limits I know an instructor who would literally ride her computer at the NDL. She would hit the limit at one depth go up a few feet run that limit out go up again ect. until she surfaced. This Instructor had also been bent at least on time before.

That's actually a user interface design problem. Computers display "no deco time" with excess precision.

There's absolutely no way any algorithm in the world knows that you have "1 minute and 16 seconds of no-deco time left".

I'd rather no deco time was displayed in much fuzzier units that relate to the ability to safely to an ESA at that moment in time.

A big display that said "OK|Probably OK|Maybe OK|Probably Bent|Bent|Dead" would be much more useful.

flots.