Bahamas Close Call Video

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Yes, they are technically responsible for their own actions. HOWEVER, as they went out with a "guide", or Dive Master/Instructor of some form in a location that they were not familiar with AND as part of a PAID package; the leads are responsible for ALL their divers and to in force the rules/regulations to make sure everyone is safe and comes back home alive.

Nothing "technical" about it. Scott, if you have not already done so, you may want to read this sticky.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ering-diving/283566-who-responsible-what.html

You will find that the role of DMs / leads / guides or whatever will vary tremendously from region to region, while the person truly responsible is always the diver. Ultimately it matters not to whom blame is assigned if harm comes to the two young divers in this video or to any diver. The diver(s) and their family pay the price, and only the diver truly has the ability to ensure it does not happen by getting trained for the dives they perform, and applying that training in the field.
 
Yes, they are technically responsible for their own actions. HOWEVER, as they went out with a "guide", or Dive Master/Instructor of some form in a location that they were not familiar with AND as part of a PAID package; the leads are responsible for ALL their divers and to in force the rules/regulations to make sure everyone is safe and comes back home alive.

There is no "technically" about it. Certified divers are responsible for their own safety. The guide is just that; a guide. They are not the SCUBA police. They are not a lifeguard. They are not a nanny (unless you hire them specifically for that purpose).

No, C-Cards don't "make you a better diver" in certain specifics, but would you trust someone to preform life saving work on you that was a trained CERTIFIED EMT/Medic/RN/PA/Dr./Etc. or a bystander?

I'd rather be intubated by a retired anesthesiologist with 60,000 tubes under his belt and an expired license than a zero-to-hero paramedic with no street experience.
The certification is not what matters, it's the experience.

Would you rather dive with someone who has multiple levels of certification and understands the dangers, repercussions, gear, tactics, methods, etc. to a higher level -OR- dive with someone whom just has an OW certification? Also, just because they have an OW C-Card with 1,000 dives does NOT qualify them, nor does it technically allow them to do things that more advanced divers can preform (they can still do it, at their one risk of course). There is the flip side to that as well, you could have someone who went straight up the ladder of "success" and got all their C-Cards whom has very little "EARNED" knowledge who could be equally dangerous. However, if someone has been properly trained in more advanced methods, I would feel more at ease diving with them as the SHOULD know more about what they can and can't do, etc.

Just my opinion on that. :)

"At their own risk" is how ALL dives are done. That's the point you don't seem to grasp. I don't ask to see C-Cards. I watch people. That tells me more than any card.

Very simple. There are no SCUBA police. Nor are there SCUBA nannies, unless you hire your own.
 
D-D, you aren't getting my point either it seems (are we bound to go back and forth for ever?? lol :D ). Certified means you took the time to get taught how to do something correctly. It means you have extra education on a specific topic. Now, yes there are people who will just sign off on a C-Card for the money involved...but any respectable diver, instructor, etc., would not unless they felt confident. Just like in my EMT program, our instructors WILL NOT sign you off if they don't feel you completely understand the topic, exercise, etc. at hand.

That helps to regulate the knowledge/learned basis. In medical, there are new laws and regulations in affect that an old, "retired anesthesiologist with 60,000 tubes under his belt" would not be up on and could violate...placing himself in a legal issue. The "Good Samaritan Laws" only protects bystander's to a point.

Basicly what I am saying is that while yes, logging the dives is important...(lets take a side trip to Aviation...I would rather fly with someone who is licensed on the airframe/aircraft that I am flying as a co-pilot then someone who has loads of experience flying some crop duster.)...getting the education is just as important.

No different then anything else in life. You can learn and do it by yourself for years...OR...you can be professionally taught and then enter the field and have all the knowledge to build on your MUCH stronger foundation.

Just like myself, basically you are saying that I am a danger to myself and others because I am getting certified on all the aspects in which I feel are prudent to the direction I wish to immerse myself in for diving. That, because I will be a newly certified Commercial Hard Hat Diver that I will be sub par to anyone else in the industry that doesn't have the training? While the experience plays a roll...you still should have the education to BACK UP any and all experience.
 
D-D, you aren't getting my point either it seems (are we bound to go back and forth for ever?? lol :D ). Certified means you took the time to get taught how to do something correctly. It means you have extra education on a specific topic. Now, yes there are people who will just sign off on a C-Card for the money involved...but any respectable diver, instructor, etc., would not unless they felt confident. Just like in my EMT program, our instructors WILL NOT sign you off if they don't feel you completely understand the topic, exercise, etc. at hand.

I get your point. I just disagree with it.

That helps to regulate the knowledge/learned basis. In medical, there are new laws and regulations in affect that an old, "retired anesthesiologist with 60,000 tubes under his belt" would not be up on and could violate...placing himself in a legal issue. The "Good Samaritan Laws" only protects bystander's to a point.

I've been in EMS since 1979. Feel free to assume that I am aware of the Good Sam laws. :)

Of course, laws and regulations don't have any impact on the TECHNIQUE and SKILL required to perform a procedure. I'd also rather be intubated by a medic with 60,000 tubes under his belt than an intern. Or a resident.

You want cards. I don't care about cards nearly as much as I do experience. Book learning is fine and dandy, but I have trained too many zero-to-hero EMTs who entered the EMT-P program with minimal or no field experience. I've worked with too many interns and residents (OK,I'll freely admit that it's mostly the 1st year residents that make you :facepalm:).

Cards are fine and dandy. They're also no substitute for experience. In nearly all cases, I'll stick with someone with less cards but more experience. The more complicated the issue, the more vital experience becomes. And diving, especially beyond the basic OW standards, is moderately complicated, when you consider all the things that can go wrong.

Bottom line: I'd rather dive with someone who has basic OW certification, experience, and an understanding that THEY are responsible for their safety, not the SCUBA police, than someone with a pile of certifications who thinks that a dive guide is a dive nanny.
 
There was a thread some time ago (within last year?) by someone who had rescued a pair of Asian divers (a father and son, I think) who had wandered much too deep down a wall and were totally oblivious as to their depth and their near-OOA status. The poster (rather than the DM) noticed and saved them, and happened to be using a GoPro and had a video of the incident. (I think his video had a Johnny Cash song "I Hurt Myself Today" as the background music.)

I've been unable to find that thread through the Search Function (or the video on Youtube) because I can't think of the right search terms I guess. I was talking about it with my son (a new diver) and would like to share it with him if anyone recalls the title, poster, or other info through which I might find it.

Thanks.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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