Bent in Belize--Blue Hole Incident

[ktomlinson]

I've dived from a boat with some real jerks aboard, but this thread convinces me not to dive with swine. Even if they are hydrated.

DC

I thought the thread was going pretty well considering the series of decisions the op made and wrote about. When one severely screws up isn't criticism warranted? I've not seen any nasty personal attacks here, maybe some strong opinions, but with a story like that you have to expect a few strong opinions!

 

[peterbj7]

I visited the OP at his hotel this afternoon and we had a long chat. My conclusion from that is that although he made many mistakes, which he is more aware of than probably anyone, I do not believe that any of them significantly contributed to his DCS (which was real, but relatively minor). However, we both concluded that in his particular case there is a significant likelihood that he has a heart complaint, specifically a PFO. He is going to post more specifics after he has flown home. My suggestion was that after that medical issue has been researched and dealt with appropriately, I see no reasons other than directly medical why he should not dive again. Whatever happens he will now be out of the water for several months.

We also concluded that although more proactive attendance from the dive staff might have been helpful, they really did nothing wrong. He never told them he was suffering from any symptoms and as he wasn't displaying any signs no-one was put on alert. He did mention his symptoms to whoever happened to be sitting near him on the boat, but they were almost all very inexperienced so would not have recognised the significance. They should have done of course, but such is the standard of recreational dive training these days that they would not have known.

A point on the borrowed computer. It WAS taken on the first dive, by almost the only other experienced divers on the boat, and the OP noted that they were deeper than he was for virtually the entire dive. Borrowing that computer was not silly.

On the final dive, which he undertook with no computer or depth gauge, he made a point of staying above the group for the entire dive. It's not ideal but it can work quite safely.

The OP is an engineer and was as thorough as an engineer in his self-deprecation and description above of his malfeasances. His actual behaviour was nothing like as bad as he has painted.

I am convinced that his was an "undeserved" hit, prompted by a medical condition of which he was aware but of which he had not thought through the full consequences.

---------- Post Merged at 08:13 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:49 PM ----------

Let me make a general point. A number of us, all ex-pat dive instructors with much dive experience in varied and often tough conditions, and teaching experience in far harsher conditions than found in Belize, all believe that standards generally here are inadequate. We would like to change it, but due to the "Tour Guide" laws and the restriction of that qualification to Belizean citizens, we neither have the clout to do anything nor are we listened to. I know many incidents are never reported, and whilst I don't want to alarm people into thinking it's worse than it actually is, nonetheless I hear occasionally (this afternoon there was a case in point) of incidents/accidents that never reached the newspapers or even street gossip. I worked for several years in close association with the Chamber here, the only one in Belize, and I learned of many incidents that never saw the light of day. There seems to be a feeling that if people don't hear about it it never happened. This is not restricted to diving incidents, but anything in any sphere of tourism that could be considered "bad news". A visitor picked up on this recently in the diving context and posted much the same in these pages, but he perhaps didn't express himself very well and earned a lot of approbium for saying what was essentially the truth. We are trying to change this culture, but it is a very steep uphill struggle. A major part of this is that Belize has no governing body for diving, effective or otherwise. Extraordinary for a country so dependent on the activity. I have dived in no other country with such a total absence of oversight, and that is at the root of the problem. There are nonetheless some pretty competent dive centers, but even they do silly things sometimes.

 

[markmantei]

On the final dive, which he undertook with no computer or depth gauge, he made a point of staying above the group for the entire dive. It's not ideal but it can work quite safely.

I won't address the bulk of your post, much of which I also disagree with, but this is so far off base that I have to respond.

You shouldn't be diving with required gear missing or not in working condition. I expect better from a shop owner. Would you go down without a BC? Many divers did it years ago, but if someone showed up at your dock would you let them dive? How about fins? Its not ideal, but you can conduct a dive without fins.

I am convinced that his was an "undeserved" hit, prompted by a medical condition of which he was aware but of which he had not thought through the full consequences.

If I make as long a series of bad dicisions as the OP did, I would consider myself lucky to only have a mild DCS, I probably don't deserve to get off an easier.

Mark

 

[peterbj7]

Well I'm sure you know far more about it than I do.

---------- Post Merged at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:31 PM ----------

On one or two specifics, I have had divers at my shop who brought their own backpacks and did indeed dive without a BC. Since they had upwards of 1000 dives doing that, I did not over-rule them.

No, you can't do a normal reef dive without fins, so I wouldn't permit it.

 

[vladimir]

A point on the borrowed computer. It WAS taken on the first dive, by almost the only other experienced divers on the boat, and the OP noted that they were deeper than he was for virtually the entire dive. Borrowing that computer was not silly.

On the final dive, which he undertook with no computer or depth gauge, he made a point of staying above the group for the entire dive. It's not ideal but it can work quite safely.

I accept your premise that perhaps it wasn't as bad as the OP made it sound, however, it is not just maximum depth and time, but the quality and speed of ascent that is being measured by a computer. (Of course you know this, but it is worth noting, I think.) You can remain "above the group" and have a sawtooth profile or faster ascent that could make you not quite safe compared to your benchmark divers wearing their own computers.

I would like to hear more about the factors that led to your layman's diagnosis of PFO. (From the OP, perhaps, as I'm sure you'll want to respect his privacy.) I don't see the basis for it here.

 

[markmantei]

Well I'm sure you know far more about it than I do.

I didn't say I knew more than you. Yes I have < 200 dives. You are a shop owner with > 5000. What I said was I would expect better from someone in your position than to condone conducting dives, including deco dives, with insufficent equipment that, and procedures that are out of touch with, the norm of safe diving practicies.

 

[beaverdivers]

peterbj7,

I respect your opinion. What is it like at the bottom of the Blue Hole? I have always wanted to go there.

I like most of your posts and recent posts.

However, I do not agree with your opinion about using another diver's computer even though they did the " same " dive.

Furthermore, it is not proper diving procedure to just follow a divemaster and group w/o a computer.

I was diving off Ambergris Caye. I had a guy I did not know " shadow me ". He did not have computer. He asked me why I had two dive computers. I had two very prominent Galileo Sol's, I let him go ahead of me. The divemaster was behind us. It was the 2nd dive of the day w/ a 45 min. surface interval. He saw a ray and headed into the " Deep ", so he followed it.

After the dive, I saw him w/his wife and baby. He looked very wealthy. Go figure!

Up here in the ski mountains, almost everyday a " newbee " goes right past the huge orange sign that says " EXPERTS ONLY "! At least they provide entertainment for people on the chair lift as they walk out in two feet of snow in their ski boots or their wife is yelling at them or it is a nephew on a snowboard doing cartwheels down the back bowls, the good news they have Ski Patrol. On a busy day, Ski Patrol brings an injured person off the mountain every 5 minutes.

The difference is the Ski Patrol is just picking up the piece not leading them. There is no " certification ". The Vail Valley Medical Center is very busy.

It almost makes diving look low risk. Remember you have a greater chance of injury bowling than on SCUBA!

I have been diving Belize since 1984. I Love Belize! I Love the Blue Hole!

I am serious about wanting to checkout the bottom of the BlueHole.

Casey Zwaan TDI/SDI #201 Instructor Trainer

P.S. Yes, I'm qualified.

 

[vladimir]

However, I do not agree with your opinion about using another diver's computer even though they did the " same " dive.

Furthermore, it is not proper diving procedure to just follow a divemaster and group w/o a computer.

Peterbj7 can defend himself, but he didn't claim it was "proper diving procedure," he was just making the case that it wasn't nearly as risky as it may have seemed in the original post.

Remember you have a greater chance of injury bowling than on SCUBA!

If that is true at all, it is misleading. A typical bowling injury is likely to be a smashed thumb, which, while undoubtedly painful, is of considerably less concern than DCS, with its potential to paralyze or kill the diver.

 

[Duke Dive Medicine]

However, we both concluded that in his particular case there is a significant likelihood that he has a heart complaint, specifically a PFO. He is going to post more specifics after he has flown home. My suggestion was that after that medical issue has been researched and dealt with appropriately, I see no reasons other than directly medical why he should not dive again. Whatever happens he will now be out of the water for several months.

I'm only going by the info the diver provided in his posts and don't have the advantage of having talked to him, but from what I read, he had "a few dives" (profiles not specified) on his first diving day and did three unplanned decompression dives, one to 152 FSW, on his second diving day. His symptoms, as you pointed out, were relatively minor and his dive series was definitely provocative. There's no reason to believe that this incident had anything to do with a PFO.

PFO is associated with sudden-onset severe neurological DCS, inner ear DCS, and cutis marmorata, none of which the diver reported. Statistically he has about a 30% chance of having a PFO, so if he's tested and found to have one, it's very likely a red herring.

Duke Dive Medicine, and I as the author of the DDM posts, are not in the habit of second-guessing treating physicians who are onsite and have physically examined and diagnosed a patient. However, the diver's symptoms as described (circumoral/extremity paresthesia, headache and tremors) could also be attributed to mild tetrodotoxin poisoning, especially considering that he did not experience any relief during the first hyperbaric treatment. If this is indeed the case, then PFO is particularly irrelevant.

Best regards,
DDM

 

[TechDeep]

I'm only going by the info the diver provided in his posts and don't have the advantage of having talked to him, but from what I read, he had "a few dives" (profiles not specified) on his first diving day and did three unplanned decompression dives, one to 152 FSW, on his second diving day. His symptoms, as you pointed out, were relatively minor and his dive series was definitely provocative. There's no reason to believe that this incident had anything to do with a PFO.

PFO is associated with sudden-onset severe neurological DCS, inner ear DCS, and cutis marmorata, none of which the diver reported. Statistically he has about a 30% chance of having a PFO, so if he's tested and found to have one, it's very likely a red herring.

Duke Dive Medicine, and I as the author of the DDM posts, are not in the habit of second-guessing treating physicians who are onsite and have physically examined and diagnosed a patient. However, the diver's symptoms as described (circumoral/extremity paresthesia, headache and tremors) could also be attributed to mild tetrodotoxin poisoning, especially considering that he did not experience any relief during the first hyperbaric treatment. If this is indeed the case, then PFO is particularly irrelevant.

Best regards,
DDM

Very well said, as usual. Thanks for being there, and being here.