Blue Heron Bridge Trolls

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Can you clarify how or why a government agency's collecting of additional taxes (user fees) will enhance the public's etiquette?


I definitely DO NOT want an entrance or diving fee at Phil Foster. We have been policing ourselves (I have only been diving here 5 years) for a long time. And I haven't really observed anything that bad here. I don't dive it as often as many of you, and I don't dive the weekends because of the crowd anyways. So from my experience peer pressure has been doing pretty well, but the more avid divers here might disagree.

I come from an area where most county parks in unique areas are paid admittance. When you pay to enter the part you are agreeing to abide by county park rules. Some of these rules are unique to certain parks. That fee got you a county employee that manned the park and would handle complaints. If someone failed to comply with the employee and the rules the Beach Patrol was called and it was "you had your chance now leave or you are arrested." That threat of arrest is very powerful but it totally depends on the explicitness of the rules and how they are administered.

It shouldn't have to come to arrest and it rarely did. But the various levels of warnings (signs at the entrance, information pamphlet handed out with receipt, and the signs inside the parks) gave the officers a legal standing to remove someone for breaking rules... Even though the rules were not illegal to break themselves. Most people didn't argue too much with the park employees anyways.

Again I am not advocating this at all and I hope no one feels that it has come to this at Phil Foster.

And if anyone is observing a rising trend in spear fishing or fish collection I'm sure the fwc or pbso would be willing to step up enforcement. I'd suggest providing info like: time, day of the week, description, how many fish, what type, cars with license plates. They need info on who to look for and when to look.
 
Its ta going to be real difficult to enforce any type of etiquette rules without a park entrance fee. And a LEO can only enforce or stop what is illegal. Stirring up sand with a big class is not illegal and will most likely never result in police intervention.

You are probably right on this....but in thinking of the quality of the experience, and the health of the underwater life at the BHB, I would like to use the model you see in some Eco-Island type areas--no one is allowed to touch the bottom --certainly NEVER to stand on the coral bottom....they are not allowed to wear gloves( which I would omit as meaningless here), and the operators enforce this....
If the bottom at BHB was treated like a coral bottom , and no one could stand or kneel on it....and no one was allowed to roto-till--the ecology of the area would be far healthier and it could actually handle MORE divers without dangerous "Stress" to the marine life.....

So if the park wants to allow the maximum number of divers in, then it has to selectively remove the divers that are committing eco-damage by poor skills or due to them not caring....this also is required for sustainability--Underwater preserves in the 90's that had rampant anchoring and had divers trampleling the delicate corals, sustained great damage over the years, and help to underline how important it is for the BHB Marine park to consider the health and sustainability, and best practices....this will clearly mean keeping divers off the bottom and not roto-tilling....it will also set the stage for a higher level of instruction, and for us to get rid of divers that don't care about the health of the marine life--that think it means nothing to kneel on or trample it.

I don't think that the park will ever charge divers to dive the bridge...they are pretty adamant about that.....and they would NEVER consider charging the local kids.....So we have the right spirit here...But Classes at the bridge need major controls added, as there are so many bad offenders.....
The bad offenders are going to be filmed by an army of kids and divers with Go pros, and shown to be the destructive forces they are to the park....and I am confident they will get either denied entrance in the future, or they will be forced to comply with a "No-standing /no kneeling" and "no-silt" behavior. This would also need to include no treading water when your fins are 3 feet or less from the bottom.....:)
 
Dan, haven't you talked before about how not all contact with the bottom is always harmful and if done properly has almost no impact?

I don't want anyone following me around with a gopro posting shaming videos anywhere. I'm a pretty good and very conscientious diver, but no one is perfect and I don't want an errant fin kick to get me banned by someone with an agenda, vendetta, etc. and if there is a process to ban people, what is the appeals process, etc? You know how slimy diving can be. Joe blow dive shop doesn't like billy bob dive shop so they hire someone to make a video showjbg billy bobs shop making mistakes and get them banned from the park, I could easily see that happening, but maybe I'm just paranoid from cave country drama where some groups control access to park diving.
 
Dan, haven't you talked before about how not all contact with the bottom is always harmful and if done properly has almost no impact?

I don't want anyone following me around with a gopro posting shaming videos anywhere. I'm a pretty good and very conscientious diver, but no one is perfect and I don't want an errant fin kick to get me banned by someone with an agenda, vendetta, etc. and if there is a process to ban people, what is the appeals process, etc? You know how slimy diving can be. Joe blow dive shop doesn't like billy bob dive shop so they hire someone to make a video showjbg billy bobs shop making mistakes and get them banned from the park, I could easily see that happening, but maybe I'm just paranoid from cave country drama where some groups control access to park diving.
JahJah,
I post stuff like this, mostly because I want to see if there are special angles or ideas that really need to be accentuated.
This is clearly one of them....To me, there is a clear enough "range" of behaviors underwater.....the borders are not so clear, but there are definite BAD behaviors where the stomping and tilling and standing is so obviously bad, and unthinking, that it is clear enough that it is harmful and the diver doing it needs to be warned or removed if this behavior is chronic with them--if they don't work on getting better.
And there is the other side of this border between the two, where you have the photographers that lie GENTLY on the bottom --and it will be clear to the many marine biologists in our midst, that this behavior does not injure the benthic life. Far from the borders, will be the sightseeing divers with perfect eco-skills that never touch the bottom and that never silt....and far from the borders in the BAD direction will be the Instructors that bring classes to kneel and stand on top of places like Nudieworld, and that really need to be placed in photos on a Hall of Shame.

We have the opportunity to avoid the nonsense that can happen when a government organization just lets non-divers make the rules...we have an awesome Park services, that works closely with ERM, and that WILL be listening to our collective ideas on what is important for the future of the BHB Marine Park....So things like you or me making an accidental and infrequent silt from an errant kick--this is NOT what the rules should be written for...if it is clear we know and act as if silting is bad, and we try not to...and don't usually silt throughout our dives, then the accidental silting is not relevant. Constantly sinking to the bottom with 20 pounds of negative buoyancy and standing and walking on hydroid patches, with no thought to the marine life, is entirely another thing.

Snorkelers can easily be taught NOT to tread water in 6 foot depths where they will silt as they do this.....and they are highly likely to be positively buoyant --so when swimming underwater, if they do silt it is more a skills mistake, than a problem that must continue...it can be a behavior that can be easily corrected--when compared to a groupon class where 20 divers were taught to dive at the BHB with 10 to 20 pounds too much lead, and with the idea that they should get comfortable standing or kneeling on the bottom--this is much harder to correct....this is the fault of Dive Instructors, and of Dive Shops, and it should not be tolerated as it destroys the sustainability of the Park Resource for the future and for the larger user group the park has in mind for Park Resources.

---------- Post added July 22nd, 2014 at 09:51 AM ----------

[video=youtube_share;dgdabfvr2B0]http://youtu.be/dgdabfvr2B0?t=44s[/video]

In this video ( start 45 seconds into it to get right to the matter at hand), we have a Posterchild Instructor for what is BAD and for what the Park needs to make rules against, with the teeth required to expel such instructors and classes that continue to engage in such behaviors after their first warning. This is absolutely destructive to the sustainability of the uw Park resources, particularly in a future where more locals and tourists are utilizing the park--meaning behaviors of all need to be more eco-friendly to avoid the larger masses of park users from destroying the resource.

If we can identify shops and instructors that belong on a Wall of shame like this video portrays....it is also clear that these shops/instructors will have Taught many students horrifically bad diving habits, and an argument exists that we should help these past students become aware that their training (by these bad instructors or shops) was defective in this way, and that remedial training is suggested---and potentially even offered for free by some of the better shops and instructors ( Free to the students that received the defective training). Shops like Force E ( known for some of the highest quality training and best instructors possible) could easily justify helping these students that are so damaged by the horrifyingly unskilled instructor--such as the one in this video!
 
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In a desperate attempt to stay on track, while I await a dedicated thread for bridge pontification.
Conditions yesterday;
Parking improved,
Vis lower around 10-15 feet, temps 82.
More cool critters including a Binza,
Lots of sargassum.
No bullets.
:D:D:D
John
 
In a desperate attempt to stay on track, while I await a dedicated thread for bridge pontification.
Conditions yesterday;
Parking improved,
Vis lower around 10-15 feet, temps 82.
More cool critters including a Binza,
Lots of sargassum.
No bullets.
:D:D:D
John

John,
I understand your annoyance with the Park direction.....I do have to say THIS thread is the place that most of the people that LOVE and CARE ABOUT the BHB visit daily.....Many DO NOT visit the New Posts area, so they do not have much liklihood that they will see something in a thread they are not already SUBSCRIBED to....

A huge amount of planning and rule development is going to occur in the next 30 to 60 days.....if there was ever a time for you guys to decide that this thread needs to be used to help keep the BHB the way you want it...this is the time. Once the initial rules are set up, who knows how hard it will be to change them.

There is a PB Dive Association meeting tonight....I plan on raising many points in it....if you guys have your own concerns, I will carry them with me, whether I agree with them or not....( meaning I will make sure your voice gets heard....most of you..If DD starts up with powerheads or something, that's going to be selectively ignored :) )
 
Since this is from my phone- it'll be a short reply until I can address Dan's posts.

But this is​ on topic- and very relevant to the bridge. It should not be split off.
 
I know Dan is a tireless advocate of the bridge. I'm just breaking on the preachy tone this is taking. I again point out this will have no legal backing. They can't enforce anything. At best it will someone to report things to.
If we could ban private collection we would have something to enforce.
Going to BHB now, will avoid roto tiling :wink:
 
Ask how kiteboarders ended up getting their beaches banned. Then you know you all going down the same road with rules and regs.

Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk
 
Snorkelers can easily be taught NOT to tread water in 6 foot depths where they will silt as they do this.....and they are highly likely to be positively buoyant --so when swimming underwater, if they do silt it is more a skills mistake, than a problem that must continue...it can be a behavior that can be easily corrected--when compared to a groupon class where 20 divers were taught to dive at the BHB with 10 to 20 pounds too much lead, and with the idea that they should get comfortable standing or kneeling on the bottom--this is much harder to correct....this is the fault of Dive Instructors, and of Dive Shops, and it should not be tolerated as it destroys the sustainability of the Park Resource for the future and for the larger user group the park has in mind for Park Resources.

Groupon is not the problem. Don't agencies limited the quantity of students based on the quantity of instructors and DM's? I got my certification through a Groupon. We had 7 students and 3 supervising divers at all times. I did my AOW through a Groupon special, we had 5 students and 3 supervising divers. It all falls back on the instructors, sorry. And quite a few local shops are doing groupon deals and when I see them post pictures on facebook, I typically only see around 5 or 6 divers. These large groups are coming from somewhere else.

---------- Post added July 22nd, 2014 at 04:11 PM ----------

Private collectors sicken me. When I see an aquarium van in the park I cringe.

---------- Post added July 22nd, 2014 at 04:12 PM ----------

The 10pm parking ticket rush is nuts too. Why not 11 or 12? It would open up additional night diving opportunities.

---------- Post added July 22nd, 2014 at 04:13 PM ----------

How about some more parking. Maybe move some of the boat parking to automobile parking. How often does the auto lot fill vs the trailer lot?

---------- Post added July 22nd, 2014 at 04:13 PM ----------

And who determines visibility and temp? It should always be 40+ ft of vis and 82+ degrees. Just saying!

---------- Post added July 22nd, 2014 at 04:14 PM ----------

And I could use reserved parking. Plaster my name on it, all others will be towed :)

---------- Post added July 22nd, 2014 at 04:14 PM ----------

Ok, you can scratch the last 2... :/
 
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