bone setting to improve equilization disorders

[page.crow]

I can't wait to respond to you Bill. But right now, I've got a hot rod engine to rebuild-so I'll get back to you later.

The father of the young lady (my patient) has spoken. He told you what he experienced with his daughter in my office.

The outcome was expected, because success is what I am used to in my office. I am confident of my outcomes with my patients because they happen all the time. It works because it worked before, same as it ever was.

Chiropractic success stories and patients getting better does not rely upon documents and research papers filed away in some database. We are not judged by our patients based on our scientific papers. We are judged by results. The patient gets better or they don't get better. And they do tell us one way or another. But I am used to it being the good stuff.

Don't worry Bill. I didn't solicite my patient off this board. If you noted, I do not have my address or phone number on here. I am busy every day, non-stop from start to finish working on people. I don't advertise. It is word of mouth only. It's a good practice!

My goal is to make divers aware of the possibility that cervical spine manipulation is successful in most cases to help a person be able to equilize their ears. Many cannot do this and get out of diving because of it. That is sad, because diving is so wonderful. I want others to experience the good times.

Sure I'm biased toward this treatment protocol. It works. <grinning> That's confidence, not arrogance.

The claims are only extraordinary to you Bill. Because you don't know anything about chiropractic. You have no experience with it. You said yourself you have gone 40 years without chiropractic and you feel fine. Good for you. It's not for everyone. Your statement reminds me of a Chinese proverb:

"The frog in the well knows not of the great ocean."

The claims I made about bonesetting for ear equilization are not extraordinary. This has been going on for thousands of years. In China, the bonesetting is done by their medical doctors. They don't call it quackery. It's mainstream healthcare to them. They call chiropractic "Tui Na" in China. It's standard practice and they are good at it. Extra ordinary means beyond ordinary. Au contraire-I get these results all the time. It's just ordinary.

Research paperwork to prove it to you documentation junkies is boring to me. It's so easy to fudge the outcomes. It's done all the time. Just take a look at some of the whoppers in Medlars sometime. You can find a document to support anything.

It's true that the research paperwork for chiros is way behind compared to medics. There's many reasons for this and all of them dull. So I won't bother.

I let results in live people speak for my research. My research is alive and breathing-not dead bites of data on some document locked up in a database. People vote their success by participating in chiropractic-despite all attempts to slander this profession.

People use chiros because they work and get results. The results are normal and expected, not extra ordinary. Chiros don't hurt people, they get them better. That is why more people go to chiros in the USA than ever before in history. Our stats are up. Stats are down in hospitals and many medics don't love their work anymore. I still do after 20 years of practice. It's great.

Dr. Campbell is a noble physician. I have seen his contributions in scuba diving publications for years. His specialty is ears. It's unfortunate that after 40 years of practice in medical\surgical work involving the inner ear, that he is not fully aware of the potential of spinal manipulation to successfully treat inner ear disorders. Most medics miss the boat, they are denied the experience of chiropractic because of their professions' prejudice against my profession. If he showed any interest in chiropractic, his colleagues would blackball him. This happens all the time. Medics are kept ignorant of chiropractic by their own med schools and the medical establishment in general. Imagine what could be possible for helping patients if medical doctors and chiropractors were allowed to get along and work together, instead of what happens today, which is just the opposite.

Back to the thesis:

Spinal manipulative therapy (SMT), chiropractic, bonesetting, tui na, whatever you want to call it-has the strong possibility in most patients to effect an opening of the Eustachain tube and allow a pressure balance to occur in patients that otherwise cannot equilize their ears. Bonesetting is better than drugs for this. It's the most appropriate treatment. It works. It fixes the CAUSE of the problem. I dig that.

page crow dc

ps: I dove the Speigal Grove in Key Largo this weekend. AWESOME! I recommend this dive to anyone. It was great. Ocean Divers was our divemasters and I highly recommend them to everyone. They were professional, courteous, and just darn good at their job. The logged 127 foot on my computer. Deepest dive yet for me. I loved it. Great sideways ship!

 

[DocVikingo]

Dr. Campbell is a retired surgeon, and his speciality is not now and never was "ears."

Best regards.

DocVikingo

 

[page.crow]

Hmmm...interesting. OK.

I recall reading articles in dive publications last year authored by Dr. Campbell about the inner ear and equilization. I checked out his websites and bio. I knew he was retired. Cool.

I guess all that stuff written and posted about him, his degrees, his knowledge, the data on inner ear, etc., doesn't make him an expert or specialist regarding ears? OK.

Whatever.

I wish him well.

<humbly bowing>

page crow

 

[DocVikingo]

..it does not, and he would be the first to say so. Many questions sent to him regarding the ear are forwarded to a colleague of his, Dr. Allen Dekelboum, for response. Much of the ENT material on his website comes from sources other than himself.

You really are making a complete ass of yourself & embarrassing your trade. There is no doubt in my mind that the faculty of any respectable school of chiropractic would be appalled at your conduct in this thread. Might I suggest that you desist before you get any further behind?

Best regards.

DocVikingo

 

[page.crow]

Docvikingo:

Thank you for your contributions to this thread and your critical observations on my behavior and writings.

It doesn't bother me if you or any others consider me an ass. The chiropractic community is a gathering of independent thinkers. We are used to namecalling. We are pretty much immune to it. I don't speak for any others chiros. I speak for myself. Chiros run solo.

My goal has been to make other divers aware of a technique-spinal manipulaive therapy (chiropractic adjustments), to help them be able to balance their ears so they could scuba dive.

That's all I've tried to do.

Dr. Campbell lobbed the first salvo when he slandered my profession by stating it was "questionable...and possibly injurous." Bill went on to attack this idea of chiropractic to help scuba divers by referring the net public over to quackwatch (a tool of the AMA). You come on and call me an ass.

None of you guys even bothered to discuss the issue: Could bonesetting help divers be able to balance their ear pressure?

All you guys did was attack the messenger boy.

All I want to do is help divers overcome an ear problem. Is that such a crime?

I don't care what you or the net community think about me. I'm just a voice in the crowd. If someone finds this thread someday and considers using a chiro to help them overcome an ear problem, and they get back in the water and give it another try, and it works for them, fantastic. I did my job.

If anyone out there is interested in this subject for further research, you are welcome to contact me through this board and I can offer more data on the subject. In the meantime, I will still be here parrying the medically minded who do their best to suppress, misdirect, and eliminate this thread.

For those that do not understand why medics and chiros don't usually get along, I recommend Dr. Harris Coulter PhD's book "Divided Legacy". Dr. Coulter is a medical historian. He explains where western medicine came from, the differences between reductionistic western medicine and vitalistic health sciences like acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathy and the like. Dry stuff. But most doctors of all flavors don't know their roots or why they think the way they do.

Don't forget folks, the reason for this thread, (if anyone is still reading it...) was to consider the idea that bonesetting the vertebrae of the neck and back could have positive outcome on inner ear equilization problems. Is it possible that adjustments will help a diver balance the pressure problems? I think so.

Best regards to Dr. Campbell, Bill, DocVikingo. I mean no disrespect to any of you men. I wish you all well. I would prefer if you guys would stick to the issue, but I've yet to see any of you, EVEN ONCE, talk about what this thread was intended to discuss. I ask you to knock off the name calling and step up to the bat and contribute something positive to this thread.

page crow

 

[page.crow]

DocVikingo once bubbled...
I'll be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about chiropractic.

I gotta jump on this one Doc. Try it. Just try it for yourself sometime and you may understand why chiros and patients of chiros are so darned passionate about this profession. Go to a GOOD chiropractor about once a week for approximately 6 weeks and you will understand



However, having been on the faculty of the country's top rated medical school for many years I do fancy that I know something about the scientific method, thinking logically, the preferability of supporting one's assertions with citable, published research rather than anecdote, arguing in a dignified fashion, and kindred niceties of discussing one's positions with other professionals. These are the fundamentals by which any true health care profession gains credence and respect.

Just found your post DocVikingo. I've been out of town for awhile, on a scuba trip. Let me reply to your post paragraph by paragraph. Here goes:

On faculty at a big med school. Good for you. I work in the trenches with patients. Big difference. I understand your need for "scientific method, thinking logically, published research" and the like. Profs, researchers, lawyers, politicians...you all live and die by those research documents you keep citing. Much of the public could care less about that stuff. They either get better or they DONT get better. I understand and agree the world needs good research, especially the chiropractic profession, so we can communicate in your terms. However, most research is so biased, so bought out, so sham, so fickle, so absurd, so one-sided, etc., that few people believe any research. "Junk Science" is the term that comes to mind. It's a shame. I know, we all try to make research truly objective, but when medical research databases refuse to publish chiropractic research properly done, it's hard to consider your databases valid and objective.

I'm all for debating in a "dignified fashion, with kindred niceties..." Are you? You called me an ass. Dr. Campbell called chiropractic "questionable and potentially injurous". Bill referred the net community to a website that calls chiropractic "quackery".

So what happened with you guys being "dignified" and where are the "kindred niceties"?

Anecdotal experiences are my life. Anecdotes are what I experience with each and every patient who crosses my adjusting table. They tell me what's going on with them, what the medical doctor told them, what drugs he gave them, that the drugs didn't work or worse made them more sick, what other drugs he gave them, what else didn't work, and that the doctor told him it's genetic or that he's going to have to live with it. They come seeking a layperson, common sense explanation of why they are sick and want to know how to get better. That is what I do for a living. Thats pretty anecdotal-but it's what the public lives in. Universities are a special place-not the real world. You learn the "book smarts" and then go out and learn what really works.


On the other hand, adducing unsupported claims or claims based on report of experience or anecdote (e.g., "Specific controlled manipulation of the spine has an INCREDIBLE positive effect on the ENT"), alleging that solid evidence is unavailable largely because the profession has been discriminated against by another, and personal attacks upon those who politely question your perspectives only make a discipline appear weak and unworthy of being taken seriously.

I agree with you here DocVikingo. The ability for trench docs like me to access chiropractic research databases and further get to you this data is appallingly inadequate. I am ashamed of our profession's inability to support the doctor in field practice. That is what I am trying to turn around in my lifetime. I have spoken with more than one research professional within the chiro communcity and asked them why. "Resources" is the answer. The chiro community does not have the resources the medical communicty has access to. Money and time. You guys are made of a never ending stream of cash. You guys have money to burn in all manner. We don't. That sucks for us. And it gives medically minded folks like you and all else the opportunity each time we try to discuss chiropractic, the power to make this profession look bad. However, lack of paperwork in a database doesn't negate the vitalistic fact that chiropractic works. I grew up with it. Mom always took us to chiros when I was a kid when we were sick. We got better from all manner of health disorders just taking adjustments. I grew up with strong convictions this stuff chiropractic worked. Now that I've practiced it for 20 years, I'm still convinced, and even more so. It would blow your mind what gets better when you adjust the spine. Anecdotes, all of them, but none the less valid.

Harris Coulter PhD, in his book, "Divided Legacy", a history of western medicine, describes why chiropractic cannot be judged by the standards of medicine. They are two separate and distinct health care systems. Apples and oranges. Anecdotal feedback from patients is not accepted by medical researchers. I understand.


As for dismissing polite and apparently legitimate questioners of your assertions not on the basis of any proof, science or even theory, but rather by suggesting that they are specious in their arguments, only whipping up misinformation, ignorant, and focussed on controlling and suppressing your discipline--well, that could be seen as shading over from unacceptable techniques of argument to my area of specialization, psychiatry.


Your specialization is psychiatry? Tell me Doctor, why is the whole organization of Scientology vehemently opposed to psychiatry? I've met some pretty logical and sane people who call themselves Scientologists and they maintain psychiatry is doing some pretty nasty things to humankind. What's up with that?

In my view, anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the anatomy and physiology of the ENT might understandably be puzzled as to what chiropractic might bring to the process of equalization during scuba. If there is any basis for your claims, I simply do not fathom why your response to this question has been one of massive defensiveness devoid of any explanation as to exactly how manipulation/adjustment may be of benefit.

Finally, someone asked that question. Thank you very much Doc. Go back to basic anatomy and physiology class. Remember that the nervous system controls and coordinates all structurs and functions in the body. In anatomy dissection class we saw it for ourselves, all of us, that there are nerves that run out of the neck region, into the face, arms, etc. There are twelve cranial nerves. These structures affect and control all aspect of structure and function in the face, including the inner ear. Mechanical dysfunction of vertebrae causes nerve impingement. This adversly affects structure and function. Infammation results. Swelling and muscle spasm results. The Eustachain tube become swollen and spastic. Pressure equilization is obstructed due to acute mechanic stress or chronic muscular stress. Vertebral and other osseous manipulation releases these stresses and dysfunction.

I can understand you would not know anything about this. You said yourself you knew nothing of chiropractic. That means you've never been to a good chiro. You have NO IDEA how good it feels to get chiropractic adjustments. The results are beyond incrdible. I use superlatives because I GET superlative results quick and inexpensively for my patients. That is why I am so passionate and confident in this health care practice.




As a final note, you have stated that you "see 40-70 patients per day." Let's say that you see patients for a solid 8 hours a day, with additional hours for completing charts, taking breaks for lunch and the loo, returning phone calls, attending to business paperwork & keeping up with the literature stretching the days to 12 hours or beyond. If you see 40 patients, that suggests that each patient is getting, on balance, only about 12 minutes of your attention. If you see 70, it's more on the order of about 7 minutes. Can meaningful chiropractic diagnosis and manipulative therapy really be consistently accomplished in 7 to 12 minutes?


YES! Very much so. Sometimes I spend more time with patients, most times I spend less. Amazing, huh? I'd have to show you how we pull this off each day. It's fatiguing. As for time off for other things-no way. I don't take time for phone calls, no poddy breaks unless I'm bursting, it's constant work non-stop with no interruptions during work time. Focus and velocity. Yeah, I see that many each day. Many chiros see a LOT more than I do. We even get the SOAP notes worked out. (tape recorders vastly improve documentation speed.)

I must say that if I were a chiropractor I would be deeply embarrassed by the conduct of the DC's involved in this discussion. I would add that while I have long maintained an open mind about chiropractic, the discipline's reflection in this thread has caused my view to narrow somewhat.


Ego doctor. I don't care a hoot about Ego. All your talk about being a faculty professor in a most astute medical school is pure ego. We are all not that important.

What is important is results. Getting patients better in an inexpensive way. They either get better or they don't.

I would love to hear from and I CHALLENGE any and all med students, teachers, and medical doctors to explain to me and the net public WHY the ears do not balance and equilize. (And don't give us that nonsense excuse about genetics causing it)

The chiropractic profession's explanation is that abnormal anatomy and physiology (mechanical dysfunction) adversely affects the physiology of the inner ear. When we get repeated success results time and again for years and years, you get a little confident of the outcome.

I have studied medicine. Drugging the body is not logical. Cutting out body parts is not logical. Burning the body (radiation) is not logical. Chemotherapy and chemical destruction of life (antibiotics) is still not logical.

Please explain the CAUSE of ear equilization disorder coming from a medical perspective. Also, keep it in terms the lay public can understand. This is a public net forum. Not everyone here is a doctor with years of education.


Best regards.

page crow

 

[Bob3]

Go to a GOOD chiropractor about once a week for approximately 6 weeks and you will understand

I go to one of my gradeschool buddies, I've been tied in knots before going in & have yet to need a 3rd adjustment, most all the time its all over in just 1.

Can meaningful chiropractic diagnosis and manipulative therapy really be consistently accomplished in 7 to 12 minutes?

I guess that explains it, I get to lay on the roller table for at least 20 minutes first & then he takes 20 minutes to half an hour after that.

When I was a kid one of my MDs was also a DC. You never knew what was in store for you 'till you got in there, he might jump on you or stick ya with a needle.
He was another one of those guys where a 2nd visit usually wasn't needed.
How come most of the time I hear about other folks having to keep going back repeatedly for numerous adjustments?

 

[The Chairman]

First off... I am not a medical doctor! I treat sick computer networks and only have to deal with users afflicted with various IDTenT diseases (in shorthand that is id10t :tease: ).

My doctor growing up in Orlando, Dr Thomas E Chambers was a DO... I called him my "Horse Doctor" for many reasons, but he was honest and absolutely the best. I went to him again as an adult, fully aware of the differences between MD and DO this time, and I noticed a few things. He had not bought into "Holistic" therapies... he fixed what was wrong. There were no vitamins, he did not appear to be trying to prove the rest of the medical world wrong about their approach either. Nope. When I came in with an ear ache, he prescribed anti-biotics and they worked. When I had a continual hearing problem as a youth, he advised my mother to stop smoking around me. There were no adjustments made or offered, just logical supported medicine. When I moved away to college, most of my hearing returned.

So I had to ask him why his was not like many chiropractic offices that I had been to. His answer was quite direct... "I only believe what they can prove scientifically". He went on to cite how many of his colleagues went off on one tangent or another, following the current "trend of the day", and how he chose to just do his best to heal people in the most accurate and safe way possible. He made it clear that there were many MDs who did the very same thing... he called them all "Witch Doctors".

Now, I am not here to label anyone a "Witch Doctor"... but I would like to point out that Scubadoc asking for the scientific basis for this is only an attack if there is in fact no factual basis. The first post after that came out swinging calling him a fear mongerer. But hey, I have seen miraculous cures documented by scads of "Herbal Life" and "Shaklee" users... and even now my wife swears by "Juice Plus". I am relegated as the fear mongerer in this family as, just like Dr C, I refuse to believe without the scientific proof.

That these cases actually have positive results is more due to a placebo effect than anything else. If the cause can not be found (possibly not due to the actual physiology), then anyone who claims a cure and alleviates the fear at the same time will be successful. It is obvious to this layman that there is some placebo effect here, especially since anxiety is a leading cause of people not being agle to equalize. I know this as a dive instructor, and I have helped MANY a people to overcome their fears and learn to equalize easily.

Just my 2 centavos worth in a hotly debated thread. Keep it a bit more friendlier please... you do get extra points for being civil.

 

[Wyno]

NetDoc once bubbled...
First off... I am not a medical doctor! I treat sick computer networks and only have to deal with users afflicted with various IDTenT diseases (in shorthand that is id10t :tease: ).

That these cases actually have positive results is more due to a placebo effect than anything else. If the cause can not be found (possibly not due to the actual physiology), then anyone who claims a cure and alleviates the fear at the same time will be successful. It is obvious to this layman that there is some placebo effect here, especially since anxiety is a leading cause of people not being agle to equalize. I know this as a dive instructor, and I have helped MANY a people to overcome their fears and learn to equalize easily.

Just my 2 centavos worth in a hotly debated thread. Keep it a bit more friendlier please... you do get extra points for being civil.

Next time try a placebo on your next computer virus, see if that works.

Anxiety on land about equalizing your ear. I wouldn't think so, you have to realize this went on for 6 months and could not equalize on land or in water.

 

[The Chairman]

I have instructed a number of students who "claim" that they can not equalize on land or in the water. So far, it has always boiled down to fear and misinformation, and so I have not referred any of them to either traditional or chiropractic care. I have not needed to. It is my most humble opinion that FEAR is the greatest obstacle to equalizing the ears and that patient careful instruction has been the only remedy that I have needed. Obviously, ANYTHING that will alleviate fear will also then facilitate equalizing ears. The mind is an awe inspiring organ, and yet it is not always rational. Fear and stress are especially not rational. I am not referring to full blown phobias either but to the normal fear and stress that we encounter every day.

While we may take offence at a placebo “duping” us to believe something that isn’t; nothing could be further from the truth. It is merely our pride that will dismiss this effect amongst us and our loved ones. Any doctor (DO or MD) or instructor that dismisses the power of positive thinking as poppycock has lost one of the most important tools at their disposal. Depending on the issue, even laughter can heal you… and a positive suggestion that a manipulation or a sugar coated pill will cure the believer just might help them overcome a multitude of fears that may preclude them from being healed. Does it really matter if the result is the same? Probably not, but the inference that we may not have had a “real” medical problem only seems to insult us. That's too bad.

However, to state as fact something that has not been scientifically proven and then get all pissy when asked for the proof is contra-indicated for a thorough discussion. Sincere skepticism is exactly what the doctor ordered when it comes to verifying any regimen as a real cure. Those who dismiss or demonize that skepticism and the concurrent scrutiny only tarnish their own reputation. IOW, it’s OK to make a thesis that won’t hold water, but it is not OK to become hostile when someone questions it.

So, what actually cured your daughter is in question. We know the actions taken immediately prior to her recovery and we know the apparent conclusion. Yet, there has been no compelling causal relationship established between SMT and the ability to equalize. A thesis has been proposed to that effect, but now that thesis needs to go into the “proof” stage where anything might happen. I can’t speak as a medical doctor, but I certainly need proof and not just “testimonials”. Their standards are obviously much higher than mine.

As for computer viruses... most are in fact operator error. Whenever a user cannot do something with their PC, they seem to want to find an external cause and not question their own abilities. This is especially ironic since most users have terrible feelings of inadequacy when it comes to using their PCs. That's right... fear and misinformation are FAR more common than actual viruses. Like the guy who called me last week, claiming that the latest virus destroyed his "desktop". I merely restored it from the "Recycle Bin" where he had inadvertently put it. Yes, he felt rather silly that he hadn't looked there first, but the fear that he may have lost important data was very real and it impeded his ability to identify and do an exceptionally easy task. He was incredibly agitated when I arrived but quite cogent and calm when I left. That’s why we call it an "ID-Ten-T" virus... which looks like ID10T when written correctly... and I only wish that I were immune to it! :tease: So sure, I will accept your suggestion to use a little techno-psychology on my next client, as I do on all of them. Gee, I hope I don't need license to do this!