Buddy system flaw?
- Thread starter jcfahy
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The idea of spare air for OOA emergencies at 60 to 100 feet is what we get worked up over....if you are hanging at 10 feet, a spare air could give you a minute more or so...but at 10 feet with her next to you, she could also give you the long hose, and escort you to the surface....or you could just exhale and surface...I mean you are at 10 feet !
Contrary to claims by spare air, missing a safety stop will not typically kill you
Regards,
DanV
cbm32
Contributor
Yup a buddy is a great spare air source......but I guess I am new enough to think you can never have too many spare air sources and so what is the harm in having another one? Maybe I dont NEED anything but a buddy but maybe I WANT the extra security of another air source.
There have been some very helpful posts since I made the faux pas of mentioning the forbidden term "Spare Air", and then there has been a spate of responses that smack of "what I do is the only way to do it and anyone that does anything else is a stupid azz".
That just makes this place like very other online board. Very helpful if you can tune out the static from those that are intolerant and/or have a GOD complex.
There have been some very helpful posts since I made the faux pas of mentioning the forbidden term "Spare Air", and then there has been a spate of responses that smack of "what I do is the only way to do it and anyone that does anything else is a stupid azz".
That just makes this place like very other online board. Very helpful if you can tune out the static from those that are intolerant and/or have a GOD complex.
- Messages
- 5,884
- Reaction score
- 2,998
- Location
- Lake Worth, Florida, United States
- # of dives
- I'm a Fish!
cbm32
Contributor
DanV
No problem. Just remember, cbm32=he don't troll LOL
No problem. Just remember, cbm32=he don't troll LOL
No problem .. I get sucked into them too , and I feel mad/stupid afterward .. not going to let those change me though
cbm32, there are just some topics that have been discussed so often, and with such acrimony, that anyone bringing them up innocently is likely to be dismissed as a troll. Spare Airs are one of those. We apologize; it's easy for a new diver not to be aware of where the minefields are
Anyone who knows me, knows I am a strong advocate for a team approach to diving. I think you can massively simplify your decision-making when you know you are diving with people with strong, practiced skills and a commitment to staying together. Which is fine, if you travel with your dive buddies, or if you go places where you can prearrange good buddies. But I do feel for the people who travel alone, and I think the problem of backup systems can be a much more challenging one for those folks. Unfortunately, with the world of diving the way it is, strong team skills are the exception, rather than the rule, and as the original story in this thread points out, best practices are often not only not followed, but not expected to be followed.
I do think that anyone expecting to "buddy up" with the dive guide should be aware of the fundamental incompatibility of someone guiding and being "responsible for" a group, and someone being a real dive buddy. If the dive op's practice is to pair people up as they use their gas, and send them up that way, that may be acceptable, so long as one is then willing to accept a random partner for the rest of the dive. For me, a plan to send me to the surface alone when I'm low on gas is unacceptable, but then, I don't dive unless I have a designated buddy or buddies. I've been in situations where I ask, "What are we doing for teams?" and the answer is, "Oh, we're just going to dive as a group," and I won't take that. I want one or two people who are MY team, and we commit to beginning the dive together, and ending it together. This has proven wise on more than one occasion, as people diving as a "group" don't seem to spend much time or energy avoiding diver separation -- and it's really not possible to try to keep track of more than two other people, while still doing much enjoying of one's own dive. (DM guides aren't down there for their own sightseeing!)
At any rate, I think if you are someone who is going to present to resorts or boats by yourself, having a redundant gas supply of your own, of adequate size to handle issues (which means, for anything more than very shallow dives, about 20 cf or more), is probably wise. But if you carry such a thing, make sure you practice using it, so that when you need it, you aren't fumbling around looking for your safety gear. I have seen pony bottle configurations that were really convoluted and didn't look very well thought-out.
Anyone who knows me, knows I am a strong advocate for a team approach to diving. I think you can massively simplify your decision-making when you know you are diving with people with strong, practiced skills and a commitment to staying together. Which is fine, if you travel with your dive buddies, or if you go places where you can prearrange good buddies. But I do feel for the people who travel alone, and I think the problem of backup systems can be a much more challenging one for those folks. Unfortunately, with the world of diving the way it is, strong team skills are the exception, rather than the rule, and as the original story in this thread points out, best practices are often not only not followed, but not expected to be followed.
I do think that anyone expecting to "buddy up" with the dive guide should be aware of the fundamental incompatibility of someone guiding and being "responsible for" a group, and someone being a real dive buddy. If the dive op's practice is to pair people up as they use their gas, and send them up that way, that may be acceptable, so long as one is then willing to accept a random partner for the rest of the dive. For me, a plan to send me to the surface alone when I'm low on gas is unacceptable, but then, I don't dive unless I have a designated buddy or buddies. I've been in situations where I ask, "What are we doing for teams?" and the answer is, "Oh, we're just going to dive as a group," and I won't take that. I want one or two people who are MY team, and we commit to beginning the dive together, and ending it together. This has proven wise on more than one occasion, as people diving as a "group" don't seem to spend much time or energy avoiding diver separation -- and it's really not possible to try to keep track of more than two other people, while still doing much enjoying of one's own dive. (DM guides aren't down there for their own sightseeing!)
At any rate, I think if you are someone who is going to present to resorts or boats by yourself, having a redundant gas supply of your own, of adequate size to handle issues (which means, for anything more than very shallow dives, about 20 cf or more), is probably wise. But if you carry such a thing, make sure you practice using it, so that when you need it, you aren't fumbling around looking for your safety gear. I have seen pony bottle configurations that were really convoluted and didn't look very well thought-out.
Adobo
Contributor
People kind of focus on "out of gas" in these kinds of scenarios. Sadly, being in an unplanned solo dive puts you in a situation where you are not prepared for several types of issues, not just out of gas. Off the top of my head:
- depth gauge/bottom timer dies
- mask strap breaks and mask comes off your face
- you go to deploy your SMB and it goes birds nest on you
- getting vertigo or somehow getting disoriented
I'm sure if someone put some thought into it, they could come up with all kinds of other issues that a spare air or a pony bottle couldn't solve. My guess is that if you are going to try to solve this by being a "self sufficient" diver, there is going to be more to it than just redundant gas.
BTW, to the OP, there is a difference between buddy diving and what some are referring to as gaggle diving. I don't know of any diver who hasn't had a bad gaggle diving experience.
- depth gauge/bottom timer dies
- mask strap breaks and mask comes off your face
- you go to deploy your SMB and it goes birds nest on you
- getting vertigo or somehow getting disoriented
I'm sure if someone put some thought into it, they could come up with all kinds of other issues that a spare air or a pony bottle couldn't solve. My guess is that if you are going to try to solve this by being a "self sufficient" diver, there is going to be more to it than just redundant gas.
BTW, to the OP, there is a difference between buddy diving and what some are referring to as gaggle diving. I don't know of any diver who hasn't had a bad gaggle diving experience.
Going back to the topic for a minute...
I've been on many dives (resort areas) where the DM included in their briefing that once you reach x PSI, let the DM know and he will direct you (give you direction) to return to the anchor (or mooring) line.
Resort operations tend to require their customers to follow a DM. Most have come to expect the DM will continue to guide the dive while those running short on air peal off to return to the boat. Most of these divers are once a year, vacation divers and know the drill. When you buddied up with the DM he may have just assumed you understood the program but he should have communicated the plan before splashing.
It all comes down to a clear, pre-dive discussion. You didn't have one and should not have been surprised when a simple issue caused confusion.
I've been on many dives (resort areas) where the DM included in their briefing that once you reach x PSI, let the DM know and he will direct you (give you direction) to return to the anchor (or mooring) line.
Resort operations tend to require their customers to follow a DM. Most have come to expect the DM will continue to guide the dive while those running short on air peal off to return to the boat. Most of these divers are once a year, vacation divers and know the drill. When you buddied up with the DM he may have just assumed you understood the program but he should have communicated the plan before splashing.
It all comes down to a clear, pre-dive discussion. You didn't have one and should not have been surprised when a simple issue caused confusion.
Adobo
Contributor
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