Buddy system flaw?

[Groggy Dog]

Granted I'm just a lowly OW certification student, until I'm comfortable with my skill set, I plan on making certain that ANY dive master that I employ knows that he/she is there for me and me only. I mean seriously, my life is worth the extra $$ to make sure they are on MY dive plan. Otherwise they owe me about as much attention as all the others who have paid commensurate dollars. In this situation I would have made certain that I had a dedicated DM, money be damned, otherwise I would not have gone.

 

[udtfire]

take the ultimate buddy course( solo diver) and never be alone again you carry your buddy with you

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The boats I have worked as guide from have all "allowed" solo ascents. It's up to the buddy members to make this decision. I tell my solo group members that if they are not OK with a solo ascent I will join them until they surface.

It's fine that the boat allows this. The boat has no liability for the procedures used by certified divers. It is the responsibility of the dive buddy team to ensure their own safety. For me, the dive does not end until the buddy team are back on the boat. I wouldn't ever be happy to leave my buddy unattended on the surface.

Morality aside, I can't imagine the success of admiting "I then left him alone on the surface and returned underwater to rejoin the group" at the inquest and tribunal for a fatal dive accident.

If a boat or guide "allows" solo ascents, it is likely they also allow "ascent teams" to be formed when one member each of two buddy teams reaches ascent pressures at around the same time. By waiting until the last minute the team members will at least have had a dive or two to size up their potential teammate.

These practices are common on 'insta-buddy' dive boats. I call it 'Gaggle Diving'. Personally, I think it flouts safe diving practices at the expense of proper planning and effort by both the divers and diveguides concerned.

During these dives nobody has any pre-designated responsibility for a buddy. Because of this, nobody can conduct a proper dive plan and maintain proper buddy awareness during the dive.

A lot of otherwise avoidable fatal dive accidents happen because of this.

At the very least it discourages divers from using proper buddy procedures and planning dives. It encourages divers to act like mindless sheep, just following a DM without taking any personal responsibility during the dive.

If the guide tells you they are your buddy, just like with any insta-buddy it's up to you to communicate before the dive what you expect from your buddy. I carry a large slate, so I explain to my charges that we can converse during the dive if they need.

The (qualified professional) dive guide shouldn't be expected to take responsibility for the less experienced buddy? They shouldn't be expected to role model safe diving practices for their customer?

Well I live in Hawaii. If I want to work as a boat dive guide I must operate the way the employers mandate. Since pretty much every boat dive company in the State of Hawaii operates under similar ascent mandates, I either do my best in the duties of my position or do not work as a boat guide.

If you visit Hawaii without a buddy and want to do a dive boat trip, you will have basically three options; hire a private guide, insta-buddy with another solo or team or accept the guide as your buddy. On our boat hiring a private guide is expensive; cost of seat not sold and cost of guides daily wages (~$250 + tip).

Now speaking directly to the red highlighted text above;

Our max group size is 7 divers with one guide (13 guests max). It is common for there to be 2-3 couples or a couple and a 3 diver team. That would leave 1-3 solo guests. In my briefings I would; assign a single solo to myself if they did not buddy with an existing team, buddy 2 solo's and suggest all three options for 3 solo guests.

Just because there are no predetermined teams for the solo guests the predetermined couples/teams are not prevented from fulfilling their responsibilities to their buddies so your comment "During these dives nobody has any pre-designated responsibility for a buddy. Because of this, nobody can conduct a proper dive plan and maintain proper buddy awareness during the dive" is pretty escalative. (did I make up a word?)

Perhaps a proper wording is "IYO, you feel the solo guests do not have a proper buddy."

So sitting there on your computer chair you "know" how my coworkers and I perform our jobs? The boat cliental here in Hawaii has a large beginner or infrequent vacation diver percentage; I have done numerous searches and have found very few (if any) "avoidable" fatal accidents among the certified boat customers in Hawaii that could have been due to the "gaggle diving" guide/buddy/solo ascents procedures.

 

[jcfahy]

Advising good communication is unquestionable but a Monday morning quarterback's recommendation. A diver should have a full checklist to be sure everything is covered but I have not seen anyone with one and not heard the long conversation. Several threads talk about prolonging air consumption but the simple fact is that everybody have a different rate however long or short and therefore the safety system needs to work. As I the OP said earlier I have no problem assuming responsibility for my safety BUT I thought it was a reasonable assumption that the buddy system that the DM told me operates included staying together. Now I understand that I need to be prepared for solo ascent as it is common, what preparation do you advise? The pony bottle discussion was a side track in a way but it is relevant to the point that the buddy breathing and other safeguards had broken down. I suppose that I was naive in expecting that divers are really covering each others back unless they bring their friends with them.

 

[jcfahy]

take the ultimate buddy course( solo diver) and never be alone again you carry your buddy with you

Thanks, this is what I plan to do but only one agency provides it.

 

[DevonDiver]

Thanks, this is what I plan to do but only one agency provides it.

why is that an issue?

 

[jcfahy]

why is that an issue?

I suppose it should not be an issue but it underlines that solo diving is not a generally recommended practice. I plan to use the training as a extension of my knowledge and experience in a more conventional PADI context. Perhaps PADI and others should cover the issue. I am continuously learning during my several dive trips per year and the more knowledge and experience I acquire about diving, the more I understand how much more I need!

 

[DevonDiver]

PADI have a stated policy that endorses the principle of solo diving, but maintains PADI believe that the buddy system offers the best dive safety.

PADI are not 'everything' in diving. I believe that what PADI does, it does well. PADI creates good mainstream recreational divers. The have a modular system of education that enables divers to enjoy scuba diving with the minimum of effort and expense. That system gets people into the underwater world quickly and easy.

The 'pay-off' for this quick and easy concept is that it accepts the limitations of the diver training it provides. It keeps divers safe through sufficient education, coupled with recommendations/limitations that absolutely minimise risks that the diver can be exposed to.

A PADI diver has quick and easy courses. They are also subject to strongly recommended limitations on depth, duration, decompression, penetration and buddy diving.

PADI only offers a solution to most divers' needs. It doesn't offer a solution to every diver's needs.

 

[halocline]

Granted I'm just a lowly OW certification student, until I'm comfortable with my skill set, I plan on making certain that ANY dive master that I employ knows that he/she is there for me and me only. I mean seriously, my life is worth the extra $$ to make sure they are on MY dive plan. Otherwise they owe me about as much attention as all the others who have paid commensurate dollars. In this situation I would have made certain that I had a dedicated DM, money be damned, otherwise I would not have gone.

You're totally misunderstanding the role of a DM. They're not there to keep you alive; if you need that then you should not be diving. DMs are guides, that's it. Of course they'll rescue you if you're in trouble and they can without endangering themselves, but every OW diver is responsible for his/her own safety. Until you understand and accept that, consider golf.

It always strikes me how quickly some people, usually fellow dive professionals, will jump on a thread like this and condemn the DM or instructor involved without any first hand knowledge of the situation.

In this case, the OP showed up for a boat dive without his own buddy. That's more or less agreeing to solo dive, if you really think about it, unless it was agreed on prior that a dedicated DM would act as a buddy. As I'm sure someone must have posted in this thread (I haven't read it all) if the DM is there to guide a group, he could not have ascended early with the OP, without leaving the group.

This sort of thing happens all the time in the caribbean. I show up for a boat dive solo, sometimes get buddied with another client, sometimes not. Usually pairs of divers will ascend early if necessary. The conditions are almost always such that a DM can still see divers at their safety stop. Forgive me for being a little harsh, but if you can't ascend to a safety stop and hold it on your own in clear water, you probably need to rethink your training.

 

[jcfahy]

You're totally misunderstanding the role of a DM. They're not there to keep you alive; if you need that then you should not be diving. DMs are guides, that's it. Of course they'll rescue you if you're in trouble and they can without endangering themselves, but every OW diver is responsible for his/her own safety. Until you understand and accept that, consider golf.

It always strikes me how quickly some people, usually fellow dive professionals, will jump on a thread like this and condemn the DM or instructor involved without any first hand knowledge of the situation.

In this case, the OP showed up for a boat dive without his own buddy. That's more or less agreeing to solo dive, if you really think about it, unless it was agreed on prior that a dedicated DM would act as a buddy. As I'm sure someone must have posted in this thread (I haven't read it all) if the DM is there to guide a group, he could not have ascended early with the OP, without leaving the group.

This sort of thing happens all the time in the caribbean. I show up for a boat dive solo, sometimes get buddied with another client, sometimes not. Usually pairs of divers will ascend early if necessary. The conditions are almost always such that a DM can still see divers at their safety stop. Forgive me for being a little harsh, but if you can't ascend to a safety stop and hold it on your own in clear water, you probably need to rethink your training.

I think you missed the point DM. As the OP I was confortable ascending solo but pointed out, as you do, that the DM role is NOT responsible for my dive safety UNTIL he volunteered to be my buddy and told me that the buddy system was in operation. At that point the DM takes on the buddy role and I would expect that he fulfils it to the end as PADI taught him as DM and me as a PADI certified diver. Yes, I can look after myself but as DM who is now a buddy you either fulfil the role or you do not. If I show up without a buddy and you think that I am really diving solo, fine, have the balls to say so rather than pretend a buddy system is in operation. In my case I am able to cope but what if he had a less confident diver who panicked? Safety and consistency is my point not whether I am macho enough to cope.