Buoyancy I’m confused

[drk5036]

The whole reason I bought the mako suit was for maneuverability and that it supposedly requires less lead. I’m not feeling it

An open cell dry suit is supposed to be much warmer. Therefore, if you were to wear a 5 mil open cell versus a 7 mm closed cell, the weight difference would be different.

Also, how old was your old suit? What brand and what thickness?

 

[MAKO Spearguns]

Hey Inkedobiwan,

Thanks for your support. I am sure you will find your MAKO Yamamoto freedive suit the most stretchy suit you have ever owned.

Regarding the buoyancy issue you are having, I think it is because of the air trapped in your suit.

Because the suit has smooth skin inner, it is basically air and water tight when you first enter the water. Once you enter the water, the air will be pushed up into your integrated hood. Try tilting your head backward into the water, while exhaling which should allow your head to sink below the surface. The increased pressure will push the air out from around your face seals.

Another thing you will want to do (after getting the air out) is briefly open the face seal on each side of your face, thus allowing water to enter and fill your ears. This prevents a suction action and protects your ears. This is very important. Once you get the air out you will see the integrated hood and Yamamoto neoprene will make for the most warm and comfortable dive ever.

Well, thanks again for your support, Ikedobiwan. Please let me know how this works.

dive safe,
dano

 

[Jcp2]

The buoyancy calculator from rsingler is fairly close to my real world results. The divebuddy calculator fresh water calculations are close to my real salt water results. My reference data points are skin or 3 mm full suit, fresh or salt water, Lp72, Al80, Hp100.

 

[mcohen1021]

I may have missed it, but doesnt body fat %age play into how much weight you need?

with my 5 mil @ socorro last april, i used 10 lbs. i'm 5'10" 165# and a regular jacket style bcd. in the caribbean with a 1.5 mil top, i use 5#, and have made it on 3# when i gave 2# to my buddy

 

[uncfnp]

@Inkedobiwan

Have you ever dove a 5 mm suit before? Dano can correct me if wrong but I don’t think the open vs closed or the suit itself that is the issue. It is the inherent buoyancy of neoprene. The more neoprene the more lead needed. The main difference, as the calculator you linked shows, is that the 2 pc suit does require a bit more lead because of the overlap of the 2 pieces. Just the nature of the beast.

The advantage of the Mako 2 pc is that most divers will actually get more thermal protection from less neoprene because of the open cell style which ultimately means less lead for the same warmth. This is what @drk5036 was saying.

And yes, the 5 mm Mako will give you much more flexibility mm per mm. I sold my “stretch” 5 because I hated it and dove cold to avoid wearing it. I love my 5 mm Mako. There is a learning curve but after a few dives there is no going back for me.

 

[MAKO Spearguns]

@Inkedobiwan

Have you ever dove a 5 mm suit before? Dano can correct me if wrong but I don’t think the open vs closed or the suit itself that is the issue. It is the inherent buoyancy of neoprene. The more neoprene the more lead needed. The main difference, as the calculator you linked shows, is that the 2 pc suit does require a bit more lead because of the overlap of the 2 pieces. Just the nature of the beast.

The advantage of the Mako 2 pc is that most divers will actually get more thermal protection from less neoprene because of the open cell style which ultimately means less lead for the same warmth. This is what @drk5036 was saying.

And yes, the 5 mm Mako will give you much more flexibility mm per mm. I sold my “stretch” 5 because I hated it and dove cold to avoid wearing it. I love my 5 mm Mako. There is a learning curve but after a few dives there is no going back for me.

Uncfnp: Thanks for your continued support and positive feedback on our suits; I really appreciate it.

As I previously mentioned, we don't have specific information on the buoyancy of all our suits; and I don't have comparative data on the density of the Yamamoto 39 neoprene relative to what other manufacturer's are using for their suits.

In fact, most "scuba" suit manufacturer's don't even disclose the brand of neoprene they use. We do - because it is the best material available.

Another factor which may be relevant to the discussion (and something we don't typically discuss) has to do with suit thickness and how it is measured. It is my understanding that most suit manufacturer's measure the suit thickness based on the layer of neoprene PLUS the fabric on the inside (and outside). We don't.

For example, the 5 mm suit being discussed here, has a neoprene thickness of a FULL 5 mm. The external "jersey" material - the external fabric which is laminated to the neoprene by Yamamoto, is NOT considered.

This means that the actual thickness of the neoprene material itself in our suits may be slightly greater than some other suits who claim the same thickness. This is probably not a huge factor, but I thought it might be relevant.

As mentioned, spending a few moments to release the trapped air might be the biggest effect.

Also, as you correctly pointed out, the thermal efficiency of a freedive type suit is primarily associated with the design characteristics of eliminating a neck seal, eliminating any zippers and having the interior of the suit seal up well at the potential points of water exchange at the face, wrist and ankle.

So a diver can wear a thinner suit and experience better thermal protection AND less buoyancy which would be generated if a much thicker suit were worn. That's why we say a 5 mm MAKO freedive suit is probably equivalent (in warmth) to a typical 7 mm scuba suit.

 

[rsingler]

This means that the actual thickness of the neoprene material itself in our suits may be slightly greater than some other suits who claim the same thickness. This is probably not a huge factor, but I thought it might be relevant.

Actually, it can be very significant. Comparing buoyancy (and hence, weight requirement) between 3.5mm of neoprene plus fabric coating which calls itself a 5mm suit, versus 5 full millimeters of neoprene, can amount to as much as 5# of add'l buoyancy/lead required.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I used to dive a 1/2” two piece commercial urchin suit made out Rubatex neoprene. That’s 25 mils on my core!!!! At least the arms were 3/8” (10 mm). You guys have no idea what a REAL weightbelt is. When I read stuff about 5 mil suits and ungodly amounts of weight needed it makes me laugh.
Sorry, no disrespect intended, but thanks for the chuckle anyway.

 

[AfterDark]

I used to dive a 1/2” two piece commercial urchin suit made out Rubatex neoprene. That’s 25 mils on my core!!!! At least the arms were 3/8” (10 mm). You guys have no idea what a REAL weightbelt is. When I read stuff about 5 mil suits and ungodly amounts of weight needed it makes me laugh.
Sorry, no disrespect intended, but thanks for the chuckle anyway.

Did you use a AL80?

 

[mcohen1021]

I used to dive a 1/2” two piece commercial urchin suit made out Rubatex neoprene. That’s 25 mils on my core!!!! At least the arms were 3/8” (10 mm). You guys have no idea what a REAL weightbelt is. When I read stuff about 5 mil suits and ungodly amounts of weight needed it makes me laugh.
Sorry, no disrespect intended, but thanks for the chuckle anyway.

Not sure i'd want to night dive in Antarctica