Buying into an interchangable lens system -- need advice

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dreifish

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Location
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
# of dives
1000 - 2499
I have been shooting a Sony RX100 in a Nauticam housing with Inon UWL-H100LD wet lens + dome, 2 Inon +6 UCL-165LD close-up lenses, Nauticam flip adapter, Nauticam lcd magnifier and two Sea&Sea YS-D1 strobes for about a year now. During that time, I've discovered that I enjoy making dramatic photos more so than taking images just to document my dives. I like images on the extremes of the focal range -- really wide angle or (super) macro, with a slight preference for the former. I also enjoy shooting video on occasion. Lately, however, I've started to become frustrated with what I perceive as technical limitations of this set-up. which I would summarize thus:


  1. On the wide-angle side, I find that the corners of my images are less sharp than I would like, even when closing the aperture down to 5.6. I would also prefer having a slightly wider lens than the H100, which has a 144 degree (diagonal?) angle of view.
  2. As for macro, without the close-up lenses, the RX100 sucks. And with the close up lenses (especially both stacked) the working distance is practically non-existent and the focusing is pretty slow.
  3. I've found that the ability to change lenses underwater isn't as useful as I initially though because it still takes time even with a bayonet mount and carrying all those lenses makes the rig heavy!
  4. With the UWL-H100, I can only really shoot big schools of fish, reef scenic shots and CFWA -- sharks, mantas and other big fish tend to stay too far away to fill up the screen. I think it might be useful to have a lens suited for big animals -- perhaps something in the 16-35MM range? (i.e. something in the gap between the UWL-H100 and the wide end of the RX100 zoom without a wet lens.
  5. In general, the RAW files are good, but not as clean and with as much tonal/dynamic range as I'd prefer them. Perhaps I'm spoiled because I shoot with an NEX-7 topside.
  6. Video is pretty good, but switching between video and photo shooting on the same dive requires too much reconfiguration. Custom white balance takes too many clicks to set, and the highest temperature is limited to 9999K. Red filter eats up a lot of light forcing you to either open the aperture (fuzzy corners) or shoot at higher ISO (bad dynamic and tonal range).
  7. Trying to get focus on moving fish is usually an exercise in frustration

I have a trip planned to Sipadan in November and I've decided this might be a good opportunity to upgrade to a interchangable lens system. Problem is, which one? I have a budget of around US$5-10k, though cheaper is better if not surrendering much image quality. Given my preferences, if you were in my situation, what system would you buy into? M43, Nikon Crop, Nikon Full-Frame, Canon Crop, or Canon Full frame? Those seem to be the ones that have good wide-angle and macro lens options.

I realize that it's a broad question. I have some observations based on my research so far and some areas I'd like clarification.

For the full frame systems, I would probably go with either the D800 or the 5D Mark III since the d600/610 and 6D seem like they have crappy auto-focus in terms of speed and coverage. Is that right? Also, metal housing prices (I really like my Nauticam housing) are about the same for the upper and lower end models, so not a huge bargain.

For crop sensors, the D7100 looks interesting. Not so enthused about the Canon crop sensor offerings. However, the housing costs for the D7100 are very comperable to the full-frame DSLR housings, so overall savings not to big?

As far as M43, the new OM-D EM-1 looks quite promising, but there's no nauticam housing yet. The Olympus housing might come out in time for my trip however. OM-D EM-5 is another option and a nice bargain right now (body only selling for about US$720 now in Japan, and the housing is $1450). GX7, GH3 are possibly attractive for their video capabilities, but only the latter has a Nauticam housing and it's relatively expensive compared to the EM-5 housing.

So now some questions:


  1. Does either Canon or Nikon offer a real advantage in terms of full-frame lenses? People seem to shoot the Sigma 15MM fisheye with both, some 16-35MM wide-angle zoom and the 50/60 and 100/105 Macros. All of these lenses seem pretty equivalent between the systems. Is there any reason to choose one over the other? I know Canon has an 8-15 zoom fisheye, but the circular fisheye end seem relatively gimicky and it's not like the Tokina 10-17 where the long end is actually a bit rectilinear on a crop sensor. So does the Canon 8-15 fisheye zoom really add any versitility above and beyond a normal diagonal fisheye?
  2. The big advantage of the D7100 as I see it is the Tokina 10-17 fisheye lens at the wide-angle end and the 1.5 crop factor for macro. How much extra versitility does the Tokina provide over a fixed fish-eye? Can you use it to take pictures of shier sharks/seals/mantas?
  3. M43 seems to have a good fisheye, the 7-14, 9-18, and the 60MM macro. Any major disadvantages in the lens lineup when compared to crop/full-frame DSLRs?
  4. How is the focus speed on these cameras, especially when it comes to moving fish and super-macro? Assuming you use a not-too-bright focusing light, are the M43 cameras notably slower than the DSLRs? And how do the DSLRs rank -- is the 5D mark III better than the D800, or are they comparable? In terms of coverage, the D7100 has wider coverage than the full-frame cameras it seems, but is it equally fast? M43 seems to have the widest coverage.
  5. Domes. On M43 and for the D7100, it seems you can use a 4" dome with the fisheye lenses. What about the wide-angle zooms 7-14mm, 9-18mm? How big of a dome do those need? And how small of a dome can you get away with on the full-frame cameras?

I've attached some of my favorite photos from the RX100. Lest I come across as too negative about it, it's still a capable camera -- I'd just like something a step higher.
 

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So you and I are going in opposite directions. I sold my D7000 rig and shoot the RX100. I agree the RX100's weakness is macro/super macro and broke down and bought the OMD EM5 with the Oly 60mm. (Want to state you can shoot good Macro with the RX just not on par with interchangeable lens systems with great glass like the 60mm, 100mm, 105mm) But for shark shots, and things a little further off the cameras native lens and a pair of D1s should do the trick. When things get close slap on the H100/Dome. I enjoy shooting sunballs/sunray shot and like being able to have shutter syncs faster than any DSLR. With the D7000 I loved the Tokina 10-17mm, to the point I owned two; one that had the Kenko 1.4 tele permanently attached.In general I don't miss my D7000 underwater and feel unless you are making poster size prints or larger the Sony with a little editing can put out photos that will compete with any crop sensor DSLR.

But if you want to shoot at the "extremes" I would just make the jump to a Full Frame camera. When I see out of the camera photos from the FF cameras there is no denying their incredible dynamic range and low light performance. While the 4" ports are great they limit the line of lenses you can shoot, if you are going to commit to a FF camera and lenses you might as well commit to a 9.25 dome. Buy a Ferrari you need to put good tires on it. I am eyeing the Sony A7 and A7r line. I think lenses still need to fill out and will wait till generation two but very, very tempting. Small size, full frame....
 
I had a Rx100 and now shoot my D7000. I already had the D7000 and some glass for it, and found a deal on a Nauticam housing & another D7000 body on Wetpixel. While I am not really looking forward to lugging it around the world, it's not as big of a deal as some folks make it out to be. With strobes, batteries, arms, etc etc it's just under 20lbs. In the water it's just barely negative (lots of floats), and very easy to handle. Right now I have the 105mm 2.8G AF-S micro with macro port 87, and will be getting a Tokina 10-17 & Zen dome port for it before we go to Hawaii next year.

A big advantage of the DSLR is how fast you can shoot. The flash recycles much faster than the RX100 -- it's not even close. You can shoot TTL or manual, as you probably know, thus with manual you can drop the flash power down to save camera battery.

I have the 45 degree viewfinder, and I can tell it'll take some getting used to with the 105mm lens, but it definitely makes it far easier to see the viewfinder than without. Highly recommended.

Having been to Sipadan, I can say that you definitely will want great macro capability for the nearby islands as you wont get to dive Sipadan island every day. Mabul and others have tons of amazing macro opportunities. At Sipadan island, most people brought WA lenses due to the numerous turtles, white-tip sharks, schools of bumphead, jacks, barracuda, etc.
 
I shoot with a D7000. The focus is fast and accurate. I have been able to get shots that were just impossible with a point an shoot. Also the less coverage in autofocus is not a big deal. I typically uncouple focusing from taking the photo. So I can focus, compose the shot, and shoot. It works well except in fast moving situations.

In super macro, you will have a really, really narrow depth of focus. If you up the f stop to resolve it, you will adversely affect resolution.

The tokina 10-17 is a great landscape lens. On fish, you have to get really close so that can be a problem. The Sigma 17-70 works well on angel fish, turtles and large fish.

The Nikon 60 macro is a great lens. You have to get really close to do true macro so that area does not work so well. You can get a nice boost with the subsea magnifying wet lens. The 60 is nice for medium and small fish and close ups.

The Nikon 105 macro is another good lens. If you want true macro or super macro, this is what you need to us. The reach of this lens is good for somewhat shy fish. I can get nice shots of butterfly fish, damsel fish, bennies and gobies with this lens.

The problem with full frame is two fold. There is a better selection of lenses in the cropped sensor format. Also full frame give less depth of field than a cropped sensor. If you can, see if you can borrow a cropped sensor body and a full frame and do some comparative shooting to get a feel for the difference.
 
Good points brought up.

The D7000/7100 Canon 70D, cropped sensor cameras make a lot of sense underwater. As noted many great lenses, most will work on both cameras.

Cropped vs. FF: This trend has really picked up in the last 2years. As noted by others the lens line up is more limited than for the cropped DSLRs. DOF is a issue but can be overcome with shooting technique and lens choice. But as with a lot of dive gear there is this move "back to the basics" for us that means non-zoom primes. There is no arguing about the out of camera results for dynamic range and lowlight performance of the FFs but with a few seconds in Photoshop... 34 megapixels of silky results is tempting for those who do like to edit and crop. For video shooting there is a reason the Canon 5D MarkIII is soooo popular.

Nikon vs. Canon: Really the only difference is Canon is considered by many a little stronger with video than Nikon. Some claim Nikon has better quality glass but again so close it think it is almost a "urban myth".

Cropped DSLR vs. 4/3??? IMHO it is almost a tie and with the new EM1 (and others) really becomes a toss up. The lens line-up is not equal to DSLRs, yet, but it will catch up. I shoot the OMDEM5 with the Oly 60mm and the Lumix 8mm and really enjoy both.

FF Mirrorless/Compact/whatever this class will be called: This is round one, fairly sure there will be housings for them. I think it is a great trend but not putting my OMD on Ebay yet. Not an "early adopter" so may wait for round 2. As mentioned before I am obsessed with Sunball and Sunray shots and the 1/250 for the A7 an 1/160 for the A7r is a little disappointing.

45 degree vs. straight: Get one or the other, they are a great add-on. They are fantastic for macro shooting but I never really got comfortable with the 45 and sold mine and went back to a straight.

The great thing is they are all Excellent choices, all are soo good we will have no excuses, lol!
 
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MJH, James and Pat -- thank you for all the advice.

Cropped vs. FF: This trend has really picked up in the last 2years. As noted by others the lens line up is more limited than for the cropped DSLRs. DOF is a issue but can be overcome with shooting technique and lens choice. But as with a lot of dive gear there is this move "back to the basics" for us that means non-zoom primes. There is no arguing about the out of camera results for dynamic range and lowlight performance of the FFs but with a few seconds in Photoshop... 34 megapixels of silky results is tempting for those who do like to edit and crop. For video shooting there is a reason the Canon 5D MarkIII is soooo popular.

MJH -- Why do you think the lens lineup for full-frame is more limited than for crop? It seems to me that aside from the possible advantage of the 10-17 tokina fisheye, both FF and APSC/DX (and indeed M4/3) have good options in terms of WA diagonal fisheye, WA rectilinear zoom and macro. What lens would you miss when moving up from APSC/DX to FF or down to M4/3?

mjh:6930707:
Cropped DSLR vs. 4/3??? IMHO it is almost a tie and with the new EM1 (and others) really becomes a toss up. The lens line-up is not equal to DSLRs, yet, but it will catch up. I shoot the OMDEM5 with the Oly 60mm and the Lumix 8mm and really enjoy both.

FF Mirrorless/Compact/whatever this class will be called: This is round one, fairly sure there will be housings for them. I think it is a great trend but not putting my OMD on Ebay yet. Not an "early adopter" so may wait for round 2. As mentioned before I am obsessed with Sunball and Sunray shots and the 1/250 for the A7 an 1/160 for the A7r is a little disappointing.

I agree on both counts. It seems to me that m4/3 more or less matches Cropped on resolution and lens choices, isn't too far behind on dynamic range, has better viewfinders, has excellent in-body stabilization... frankly, I'm leaning more towards an EM1 or EM5 (half the price) than the D7100. How does the autofocus compare?

As for FF mirrorless, looks promising, but no lenses yet. Will wait for next iteration.

Yesterday, I went to my local store to price out a D800 system with nauticam housing, 105mm macro, 15mm sigma fisheye, 16-35mm and the associated ports -- $9500. Ouch. And 14-15 lbs?

A em5 system with equivalent lenses would be around $6000 I think and weigh 5-6lbs. Hmm. Any example galleries of excellent M43 work done underwater you could point me to?

I think the choice is really between m43 and full frame.
 
With the cropped DSLRs of course the big draw is the 10-17mm but then you have other lenses like the Sigma 17-70mm, Nikon 12-24mm, Nikon 10.5mm, etc... You can use the 60mm and 105mm; for FF macro the 100/105 are really your only choice. While there are great lenses for the FF cameras I think if you go through the Port Charts the cropped DSLRs would have more choices.

Agree on the rest of the issues.

While not "excellent M43 work" here are a couple of galleries as examples. I am sure there are others with better results that they can point you to. One is with the EM5 and the other with the Nikon D7000

Oly EM5 Gallery (There is a more detailed gallery if you are bored)
Aquablue Dreams

Nikon D7000 Gallery (There is a more detailed gallery if you are bored)
Aquablue Dreams
 
From what I understand, full frame seems to be a bit of overkill for underwater, not worth the extra bulk. Cropped sensors should have plenty enough resolution for most people. They are also more versatile and better for macro, while FF have an edge for wide angle.

One suggestion is join some underwater photography groups on Facebook, the best one is https://www.facebook.com/groups/underwatermacrophotographers/

That group is particularly good because all posts are required to show their camera, housing, and settings, so you learn a lot about what results people are able to get with which cameras. There is also a group called "Wide Angle Underwater Photography" https://www.facebook.com/groups/112262508939810/
which also requires all posts to indicate camera and settings.
 
Nikon vs Canon. My first SLR was a Canon so I have a fondness for them even though I now shoot Nikon.

I would say that both Nikon and Canon make superb lenses. It really is a toss up. In the DSLR application both companies make superb macro lenses. Both can use the Tokina 10-17 so that is a wash. No one else comes even close on optics. Some say Zeiss is better but I think the difference there is more look than anything else.

I understand that right now, Nikon is on a roll. I think they are supposed to have the edge on noise. But both systems are superb and you can not go wrong with either one.
 
From what I understand, full frame seems to be a bit of overkill for underwater, not worth the extra bulk.

Unless you are talking about a FX camera like a Nikon D4 vs the D7100, the camera and housings are pretty close to the same size. I wouldn't even consider the difference if I were to choose between the following Fx or Dx for my next camera:

D800 (FX)

Approx. Dimensions (Width x Height x Depth)


5.7 in. (144.78 mm) x 4.8 in. (121.92 mm) x 3.2 in. (81.28 mm)

D7100 (DX)

Approx. Dimensions (Width x Height x Depth)

5.3 in. (135.5 mm) x 4.2 in. (106.5 mm) x 3.0 in. (76 mm)


I expect my next camera to be smaller than the D7000, just because of luggage space. The weight, for me, isn't an issue.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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