Can dive masters and instructors solo?

[deepwaterferret]

I read with interest some of the posts on the issues posed by dive masters and instructors who solo. There is the theory that if a student sees them doing that, and emulates the instructor's solo diving and gets injured or killed, the instructor will be legally liable.

I don't think a dive master or instructor owes any continuing legal duty to former students to continue to set "good examples." Though you may have a moral duty and the dive shop and certifying agency may feel you have a duty, the law does not impose one. Once the class is completely over with and the student is no longer diving under the instructor's supervision, the special legal relationship between instructor and student that forms the basis of legal duty and liability has ended.

So, if the student sees the instructor out at the lake a week later and sees the instructor soloing, and based upon that decides to do a solo dive himself, the relationship between that observation and the student's decision to solo and get hurt is too remote to be the legal cause. Furthermore, even if it is the legal cause, the instructor owed no duty to the former student.

This assumes, of course, that you gave the students the standard lecture about the buddy system and did not do your solo diving in front of them during or right after the class. It also assumes that you did not encourage the student to solo dive.

A high school health teacher has a duty to instruct students about the dangerous of smoking because that is part of the cirriculum. If the teacher contradicts this by giving the students cigarettes to smoke, the teacher is going to face criminal and civil liabilty. The parents could probably sue the teacher for causing their child to start smoking. But if a student sees the teacher smoking a cigarette out in public after school, and then decides to start smoking because the teacher is doing it, the teacher has no liability. The teacher may be a hypocrite, but that is not a basis for a lawsuit.

 

[Jim Ernst]

i have to say i like and would agree with you on the hole issue, and of course YES i do solo dive sometimes, well...... quite a bit as a matter of fact, now when my dive buddy is avalible i would rather dive with him or many otheres i know and many that i have met here on the board!! i solo when i am doing photography unless brian is able to go as he just follows me around right on my side and points things out. i dont solo infront of or right in the vacinity of my students,but I DO SOLO DIVE!!!

 

[Nemrod]

"I don't think a dive master or instructor owes any continuing legal duty to former students to continue to set "good examples.""

So how is solo diving a bad example?
N

 

[Diver0001]

I think the OP's point is possibly more directed toward the hypocracy of instuctors hammering the buddy system into students and then turning around and diving solo. I think this is what he translated into "bad example".

Having said that, I think we're probably better off playing open card with students. That's not to say that we should encourage it, but just to make sure that students who *do* have an interest are engaged so they are properly informed about the motivations, the risks and soforth.

R..

 

[drbill]

NO WAY... of course DM's and Instructors can't solo dive. Heck, they need far more experience and instruction than many of them get today. Instructor after 100 dives? You've got to be kidding!

I am neither and solo dive most of the time. However, when I'm on our LDS' dive boat I have no problem with instructors who point out that my diving solo is not a good idea for them because I have had far more experiene and training than your usual OW or AOW student. In fact, I prefer they make a point of saying something and often suggest it. In addition I think it is great when they point to my pony bottle and other forms of redundancy to illustrate the additional equipment I carry in case.

Of course I much prefer to dive with #1 dive buddy Andrea when she is available... both for the added safety and sharing the experiences of our dives topside.

 

[Cacia]

I was not ready to solo at 500 dives. Some are ready sooner. More than numbers, it is a mindset. I personally really believe that the best divers are more likely to solo. I get heat for saying that but basically people that are confident enough to rely on themselves..."the buck stops with me" are usually confident like that for a good reason. No one wants to die. I am not saying that I am the best before you start yelling away. I am saying that I think I am good enough to survive my own ability and decisions.

I have never been anywhere where there was pressure not to dive solo if you are a DM or instructor. Seems like I hear a bit of the sentiment from some regions...your more civilized suburban areas. LA being a big exception to most things.

 

[deepwaterferret]

Nemrod, your question of how is solo diving a bad example is a fair question.

I meant "bad example" in the context of the allegations we are worried may be made against us.

Ollie the Open Water diver goes and does a solo dive a week after you taught his open water class. He gets hurt. He has no insurance. So he needs to sue somebody to cover his medical bills and lost wages. He goes to see a lawyer.

The lawyer, who is a diver himself, says, "Ollie, I hate to break this to you, but your injury was your own fault. Your instructor taught you not to solo dive in your class. He warned you. You did not heed his warnings. I don't see how I can sue him."

Ollie repiles, "but, but...I got the idea to solo dive from watching my instructor out at the lake right after my class. I saw him solo diving, so I thought it was okay. I thought all those warnings were just BS you know, because he wasn't following it."

"Ah ha!" exclaims the lawyer. "The instructor negated the warnings by setting a bad example exactly contrary to the content of the warning. He set a bad example. But for his bad example, you never would have attemped such a dangerous undertaking, now would you?"

"Um, no" replies Ollie.

"Good answer" said the lawyer. He continued "I think you've got a case. Sign here, this is my standard contingency fee agreement."

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Another example as to why it should be brought more into the open. And made plain that it is NOT for everybody or for those without the proper experience, gear, training, and mindset. Of course even with this there will still be some ambulance chasing slimeball who will find the idiot who just got his ow and thinks he's Mike Nelson and Jacques Cousteau all rolled into one. Who went out, got into trouble, and is too lazy to work for a living and therefore has no insurance and needs his bills paid and sues his instructor because of his own stupidity. It's no different than the people who sue mickey dees because they are hogs and have gotten fat. I will continue to solo dive. I will when possible and when requested by my shop owner/instructor refrain from doing it when we have students in the water. On my own time however is another story. I think that before a case is brought to court in some cases there should be a stupidity test for the victim and the lawyer. Like George Carlin says "wait a minute. He's opening his mouth, something's coming out. Yep! He's an a*#hole AND he's full of s*(%" ! Case dismissed!

 

[ItsBruce]

Deepwaterferret: Good analysis all around. The good news is that lawyers like the one you described usually starve to death and exit the gene pool.

SB will eventually post my article on liability issues in a circumstance such as what you have described.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Here's the way I look at it.

When I was teaching, my OW class, as well as other recreational classes, trained divers in open water diving utilizing a team approach (a bit more than the buddy system as represented in the OW texts). However, that doesn't imply that there is no other type of diving or that I don't do any other type of diving. I also cave dive, wreck dive and dive well beyond the 130 ft "recreational limit" incurring a significant mandatory decompression obligation. That's all stuff that a new OW diver is taught not to do. Is the fact that I dive in caves or "deep" setting a bad example for divers that I trained in OW within "no-stop" limits with a buddy? I don't think so because they were also taught that appropriate training/experience should be gained before participating in those other specialized activities.

Diving within my own training/experience is setting a good example although my training and experience is not necessarily equal to theirs and so the diving that I do in my off teaching time may be very different also.