Casino Point - Avalon, Diver Death 9/5/11

[Bopper]

I think it's unfortunate that we may never learn as to why this tragedy occurred. Its not common to have a witness (her dive buddy) the way there was in this event. Hopefully one day her story will be shared so that others may have greater insight into any lessons that could have been learned.

Condolences to the friends and family of the deceased, especially when it seems they were local to us in San Diego.

 

[Garth]

In the OW manual it clearly states (and I am sure most of the instructors mention) that one should only dive within limits of training and experience. It says that hiring a DM for new dive site is recommended as well. I also believe that 60ft recommendation and frequent checking of tank pressure is mentioned in the manual (and fairly sure instructor mentioned that as well).

It seems that your friend ended up deeper than recommended, and with not enough air supply. That two factors alone would raise a flag. I know when I started diving back in 2009 (yes I am a new diver with little over 200 dives) I was watching that pressure gauge like it was going out of style or something. Since then I've learned more about my gas consumption and am much better at estimating my tank pressure based on my dive so far and am usually not that far off. I remember that I took my AOW class soon after my OW as I wanted more instructions. I remember my first boat dive of my AOW class where a diver (who was not a student) came out with no air left and he was not the only one that day and it was not the only time that day he did that (he had to use boat supplied air at 15ft twice that day). That scared me and put him on a list of divers I don't want to dive with ever. That and another diver who w/o proper training parked himself at 140ft for several minutes just so he could see how his computer would react to deco and then rode the computer up are the two on my list of not diving with.

Anyways, I can tell you that both of those divers I mentioned knew ahead of time (as I was there either during the briefing or in one case training) that what they did was not supposed to be done. They were reminded to check their pressure and not to go that deep and go into NDL.

So yes unfortunately people do such dangerous things immediately following good instructions.

Iztok, you never been to 212ft on air for 25 minutes? :-D
We all do very stupid things that seem justified at the time. That's the problem with the human kind, and I know it's not just me...

(of course I won't be doing that again)

 

[iztok]

Iztok, you never been to 212ft on air for 25 minutes? :-D
We all do very stupid things that seem justified at the time. That's the problem with the human kind, and I know it's not just me...

(of course I won't be doing that again)

Garth I work hard to make rational decisions as much as possible because I know mistakes and accidents happen and doing rational things minimizes this.

I have never been deeper than I have training for. So no 200+ ft on air.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

 

[drbill]

Do we know for a fact that she was wearing 32# of weight? Do we know for a fact what her weight was? I have heard both stated, but unless these have been confirmed, we are merely speculating. If she was in the range of 120-160 lbs as some reported, I have already stated the general rule of thumb used here for divers in a 7mm wetsuit... 10% of body weight plus 5-7 lbs. That would suggest a recommended weight of 17-18 to 23-24 pounds. I think many of us are aware that divers in OW classes are frequently over weighted to keep them down since there isn't enough time in the abbreviated classes to teach them good buoyancy and proper weighting.

If the divers reached the depths reported, I'd certainly suspect narcosis as a possible explanation for not checking one's SPG carefully. Of course that is speculation because we really don't know. Once the investigation has been completed, we should have most of the answers.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

On the topic of training and how ready a brand-new OW diver should be: I would love it if all OW training was super-detailed and thorough. I know mine could have been better. Still, as I was reading the new posts in this thread and comparisons were made to driving a car/learner's permits, etc. I was remembering that when I was first licensed to drive I was legally allowed to drive my car anywhere, at any time. And yet, was I as good a driver as I am now? No, I had virtually no experience. I was a much better driver even a year later. That was expected.

I come from snow country and so I am a decent driver on snow and ice. But... take someone who learned to drive in Florida and who has never been up north in winter. They might have been licensed for 20 years and never driven in snow and ice. And yet they can toodle on up to Michigan in January and drive, with no additional training. It's up to them to realize that "hey, this might be stupid and I had better ease into it very carefully."

When I got my driver's licenses, it was minimal training and that was it - feel free to go drive your 3000# vehicle down the freeway at 70mph. And for the vast majority of people, there is no more training. It's all experience and "your own judgment" based. And yet no-one is shocked or outraged (?) In the sporting world, you can go to a mountain, strap on skis and go right to the top of a black diamond hill (but then there is NO certification so it is never implied that you are "certified" at all - maybe that has something to do with it).

So maybe - if all OW training is not going to suddenly become super long and thorough (which I would love but probably is not going to happen), it needs to be stressed more that this is just a sort of preliminary certification? I have read that OW, AOW and Rescue used to be OW I, OW II, and OW II. I think reverting to those names alone would go a long way towards getting this idea across. If one were newly OW I certified, it would be clear that there were two more classes necessary before even being done with the "beginner" phase.

Sorry if this was too rambling; it's just interesting to compare diving to other similar-yet-different potentially dangerous activities.

Blue Sparkle

 

[Ken Kurtis]

. . . I would love it if all OW training was super-detailed and thorough. I know mine could have been better.

It seems that there's general agreement amongst dive professionals that basic training isn't what it could be (or even used to be). There are numerous comments from the public that the training wasn't what they thought it should have been and they could have been better prepared. So I think the real question is: Why, as an industry, don't we change this? Why have we seemingly adapted a culture of "not-as-good-as-we-could-be is good enough"????

But... take someone who learned to drive in Florida and who has never been up north in winter. They might have been licensed for 20 years and never driven in snow and ice. And yet they can toodle on up to Michigan in January and drive, with no additional training. It's up to them to realize that "hey, this might be stupid and I had better ease into it very carefully."

It's a good analogy. I think the difference is that the Florida driver perceives a definite difference between driving on dry pavement in Florida and driving on snow and ice in Michigan. But I think a lot of times people feel that water-is-water and depth-is-depth and, especially early in their diving experience, may not realize just how much difference there is from diving warm water with no current and good viz to diving cold water with current and limited viz.

The other problem is with us. We (instructors) send you off by saying you're certified and imply, if not say directly, that you're now qualified to dive with any other certified diver anywhere in the world. So haven't we just underminded the whole "dive within your training" thing?

- Ken

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It seems that there's general agreement amongst dive professionals that basic training isn't what it could be (or even used to be). There are numerous comments from the public that the training wasn't what they thought it should have been and they could have been better prepared. So I think the real question is: Why, as an industry, don't we change this? Why have we seemingly adapted a culture of "not-as-good-as-we-could-be is good enough"????

I think you know the answer, Ken ... because the businesses that rely on a broad customer base have decided that a few casualties every year is an acceptable price to pay if it keeps the dive resorts and cattle boats operating. We see it in every argument we have on this subject ... if classes were more difficult, then fewer people would take them.

That is true ... the question we need to ask is whether the trade-off is worth it? I think that's a valid question, because in scuba diving, what you don't know can ... indeed ... hurt you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[blinkswiler]

As an instructor, I stress the OW cert is a learner's permit. However, I also stress that there is only one person responsible for your safety and that is the diver him/her self. No matter how hard we try, (and I'm not minimizing this or any other loss), we will never fully eliminate diver accidents. As long as the diver gets to make the dive/no dive decision, it is their personal choice. As citizens of this great country, freedom of choice is our greatest right. All the training, rules and regulations in the world will not stop accidents from happening. My condolances to the family and all involved.

 

[Teamcasa]

I thought my friends accident was a rare thing but it really sounds like its not. Are OW certs are being given to those without the proper training and skills.. I have not taken classes yet but if I signed up for any course that gave me a certificate that said I was proficient in a given skill that is what I would expect...in this case choosing the proper equiptment, understanding what everything is, and how it all works and the whole gas issue as well as the physical demands of different curcumstances.. it all seems pretty important... I would assume this certification was my "License" unless it said "learners permit _ you must be accompanied by a lic diver until you can test for your lic" What exactly is the OW cert??? If I take a class what is the expectation I would be given? A weekend class and your OW certified? that just sounds crazy..

Scuba Instruction is like anything else, there are excellent, good, mediocre, and poor ones teaching our sport. The same is true about the students. But in the end, its a sport that requires practice and a certain level of physical and mental ability to become proficient.

My standard recommendation to new students is get references and background information about your instructor. Once you become certified, find a mentor to dive with and take a few more courses after you have 50 some dives in with a mentor.

Don't fall prey to shop hype as it relates to gear and realize that whatever gear you start with will not be the gear you make your 100th dive with. As you progress, sell it and buy the gear that you (now realize) works better for you.

Scuba accidents are indeed rare however the cause of an accident is not. This is an amazing sport and it should treated with respect. So this, and your diving experience will leave you (safely) in a state of wonderment.

 

[DandyDon]

Dave/Teamcasa gives excellent counsel there, which is never surprising - but one other aspect we seldom mention: It's up to the student to ensure a good education too! The book covers the requirements. Don't just pass; make sure you learn.