Catalina Island - Diver dies while Lobstering

[openmindOW]

Iwhat is the safest/best way to get experience diving at night here in Southern California? Are there certain spots that a beginner like me can dive safely at night with an experienced buddy?

Welcome to diving, Abidon.

Take additional classes.

People who take classes generally want to be better divers, so if you take a class you'll tend to meet people who are as conscientious as you. You might meet some good people who'll make good dive buddies in the future.

 

[Leejnd]

Just read this... Gamera Baenre

Also from this link:

Hindsight is 20/20, and everything I write is opinion and speculation as I am indirectly related to everything. All my knowledge is direct from the principals of the incident; and putting all the pieces together. Jesus was running out of air when he showed his gauge to the dive master. At 90 feet, with one’s heart racing as they try to capture as many lobsters as possible, and just breathing in so much air and for so long, the logical conclusion is that Jesus simply ran out of air. He was a stocky fellow, and the previous dives netted no lobsters. When I dive with my friends, both my friends and I are constantly checking our air gauge and checking each other to see how much air each of us had. On more than one occasion, I physically grab my dive buddy’s gauge and look at it myself. I know that along with hand signals, I also show my gauge. It is my belief that Jesus’ gesture to his gauge was for the dive master to actually look at his gauge. I know that folks that dive with one another frequently get used to the gesture and hand signals of one another – so it is very easy to take that for granted when you have various other things on your mind like lobsters. So the quick meeting between dive buddies to discuss certain gestures and go over what signals mean what is completely ignored. However, before the first dive, I saw several of the Japanese divers going over hand signals and their meaning before they got into the water. This was something I failed to do as well.

Obviously the writer is speculating - he states as much up front. So please, no accusations of "jumping to conclusions," or being disrespectful, yadda yadda.

That said...I think it's a reasonable speculation for him to make. Obviously the diver ran out of air - his gauge was at 0. It's not too difficult to make the leap that he was pointing to his gauge BECAUSE he was running out of air.

So, there IS a lesson to be learned here as well. DISCUSS YOUR HAND SIGNALS BEFORE THE DIVE!

This is something that I didn't used to do on a regular basis. I have been guilty of jumping in with a new buddy without even having discussed it at all. And when diving with my husband, we thought we had our hand signals down pat, so we got out of the habit of discussing them. But during a dive last year, I was trying to signal something to him (can't remember what) and he had no clue what I was trying to tell him. It reminded us that we really needed to spend some time going over, and agreeing upon, our hand signals.

Further, I don't always dive with him - and some of my other dive buddies use different signals.

We're now back in the habit of doing a run-through of all of our hand signals before we dive. It's part of our standard buddy check. And because I've gotten into the habit of doing that with him, it's now automatic that I do that with everyone with whom I dive.

Would a quick run-through of hand signals have saved this diver? Perhaps. The DM might have realized what he was trying to say, and done something about it. Or he might have used a more descriptive hand signal. We'll never know.

But if a single one of you claims there is nothing to be learned here...well, there's just no helping you.

 

[Mr.bugs]

Sorry but the only reason I even came to this form was to find out more info on the guy that died and I read what you wrote. Thats why I jumped the gun. The guys I dive with had the same thing happen to them a long time ago. Guy floated to the surface screaming. while his wife and kid were There to witness the whole thing. Wouldn’t want you saying he was a rookie. Since that day old Don will only dive alone. He says he would rather die then have to deal with that kind of guilt again. And it sounded like you were kind of bad mouthing him for making a mistake. I know you don’t know were im coming from. Any way thanks for inspiring me to stay and be part of the form. That was not my origanel intention.

Wow. Nice. Welcome to Scubaboard. You call someone a "big head loud mouth" in your 2nd post? That's certainly a novel way to join a community. Nice to meetcha.

You are correct, I didn't know this diver. I based my "inexperienced" comment on two things: a report I read that referred to him as a "novice"; and on the simple fact that this is most commonly the reason divers die on lobster season opening night.

And for the record, I didn't specifically state that this diver was inexperienced. I was lamenting the fact that this happens every single year...and it's almost invariably due to inexperienced, once-a-year divers. Given that fact, even though I didn't specifically state this poor lost diver was inexperienced, it's a pretty reasonable assumption.

Please refrain from name calling in this forum. It's rude and juvenile. And it's not going to gain you any friends here.

 

[Codyjp]

Join a club/group or here Beach Crabs - ScubaBoard and go over to the dive park on Catalina. It's a great place to get night diving practice.

I don't think I'd recommend Casino Point as a good place for inexperienced people to practice night diving. It is filled with kelp which is exactly what makes night diving in LA tough. I'd suggest Laguna on a night without surge as well as Vets Beach.

Stay out of the kelp until your sorted with the darkness factor.

 

[Leejnd]

I don't think I'd recommend Casino Point as a good place for inexperienced people to practice night diving. It is filled with kelp which is exactly what makes night diving in LA tough. I'd suggest Laguna on a night without surge as well as Vets Beach.

Stay out of the kelp until your sorted with the darkness factor.

I think Vets in Redondo is the best place to start night diving. That's where I did my first few night dives. You might want to check out DiveVets : Friends Getting Wet!|Join our active and fun group of SoCal divers. - it's a very active group of divers who dive Vets regularly, and welcome newbies. You can always find a buddy on Wednesday nights there.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

I want to touch on the "experience vs. inexperience" theme that's cropping up here because I think it's obscuring what I think is a big learning lesson here.

"Inexperience" doesn't kill.

"Inattentive" kills.

So does "distracted," "careless," and probably a dozen other adjectives we could use to describe not only a dive, but specifically a lobster dive. Lobster diving/hunting is an extreme form of task loading, which means it's easy to froget to monitor things like depth/time/air.

Experienced divers get inattentive and die. Inexperienced divers get inattentive and die. It's not the level of experience that does them in, it's the inattentiveness.

Also don't lose sight of the fact that "experienced" is a relative term. I'm going to problably define it differently than someone who just finished up their OW class and that will be different from someone who's already got 100 dives under their belt, and that will be different than someone with 1000 dives.

In the "Why Divers Die" talk that I give (an offshoot of our Scuba Show presentation from the Coroner, Chamber, and myself), I've taken the D.A.N. stats for the last four years (300+ fatalities) and broken the fatalities down into (1) Bad Luck [5%], (2) Bad Health (medical) [25%], and (3) Bad Diving [70%].

Based on my analysis and the way I've assigned things after reading the case descriptions, fully 70% of the fatalities occur because of bad decision-making by the diver. Out-of-air factors in there pretty strongly.

Put another less-polite way, if we as a diving community could get smarter overnight, we could eliminate 70% of the diving deaths tomorrow.

So again, don't focus on "experience". You can certainly make the argument that an inexperienced diver might be more likely to forget to monitor critical functions than an experienced diver, but it's still the failure to pay attention that causes everything to go south.

- Ken

 

[ItsBruce]

I want to touch on the "experience vs. inexperience" theme that's cropping up here because I think it's obscuring what I think is a big learning lesson here.

"Inexperience" doesn't kill.

"Inattentive" kills.

So does "distracted," "careless," and probably a dozen other adjectives we could use to describe not only a dive, but specifically a lobster dive. Lobster diving/hunting is an extreme form of task loading, which means it's easy to froget to monitor things like depth/time/air.

Experienced divers get inattentive and die. Inexperienced divers get inattentive and die. It's not the level of experience that does them in, it's the inattentiveness.

Also don't lose sight of the fact that "experienced" is a relative term. I'm going to problably define it differently than someone who just finished up their OW class and that will be different from someone who's already got 100 dives under their belt, and that will be different than someone with 1000 dives.

In the "Why Divers Die" talk that I give (an offshoot of our Scuba Show presentation from the Coroner, Chamber, and myself), I've taken the D.A.N. stats for the last four years (300+ fatalities) and broken the fatalities down into (1) Bad Luck [5%], (2) Bad Health (medical) [25%], and (3) Bad Diving [70%].

Based on my analysis and the way I've assigned things after reading the case descriptions, fully 70% of the fatalities occur because of bad decision-making by the diver. Out-of-air factors in there pretty strongly.

Put another less-polite way, if we as a diving community could get smarter overnight, we could eliminate 70% of the diving deaths tomorrow.

So again, don't focus on "experience". You can certainly make the argument that an inexperienced diver might be more likely to forget to monitor critical functions than an experienced diver, but it's still the failure to pay attention that causes everything to go south.

- Ken

It does my heart good to hear Ken check in on an accidents and incidents topic. Especially when he is so right on the mark. Thanks for the insight in such a straightforward manner.

 

[Ayisha]

From the link above:

At one point, Jesus pulled his gauge and pointed to it, for which she then understood the signal to look at her own gauge. She sees that she has 1500 lbs of air..

A very similar miscommunication happened to me when I was a new diver in Cozumel on a group night dive, though the outcome was more favourable. My buddy looked at me in the darkness and pointed at his gauge console. I thought he wanted to see my gauges or for me to indicate my pressure, so I looked down, pulled out my analog gauge, and shone my light on it to illuminate it. I still had 1800 psi and I looked up ready to indicate that to him, but I couldn't see him anywhere around. Suddenly a male diver that looked to be about the same size and wearing the same colour wetsuit (blue), fins (blue), light (yellow) and red cylume passed me and I thought it was him, so I continued with the group. I thought we were the only two with red cylumes while everyone else seemed to have green, so I was sure it was him. A while later, I noticed that the manufacturer of his wetsuit was different, and I realized I had been diving beside a different diver. I signalled to that diver that I had lost my buddy, looked around, saw an easily distinguishable DM, signalled to him and we ascended together and the live boat picked us up. My buddy had safely been on the boat since shortly after he pointed to his gauge and was in a panic that I had not surfaced yet. Meanwhile, I lost sight of him for a few seconds and then thought it was him beside me.

I then found out that he pointed at his gauge because he was low on (out of?) air and he immediately ascended when I looked at my gauge. He never gave a low or out of air signal. He never asked to share air and I had plenty for both of us. There were a lot of people diving in a group and most of us looked and were dressed very similar in the near dark until closer observation revealed that I had continued with a different diver after a short lapse of attention. From this early experience I learned to communicate hand signals before diving with a new buddy; have greater situational awareness; be very attentive to details, especially on a night dive; discuss signalling when either of us gets to 1500 psi (or a pre-determined pressure) remaining; be aware of my buddy's approx. pressure remaining; and to know my approximate pressure at all times.

 

[Leejnd]

I want to touch on the "experience vs. inexperience" theme that's cropping up here because I think it's obscuring what I think is a big learning lesson here.

"Inexperience" doesn't kill.

"Inattentive" kills.

Ken, thank you for this illuminating post. The statistics are certainly sobering.

I agree with you...for the most part...but I still think that the inexperience issue shouldn't be completely overlooked.

Based on the more recent information that's come to light, it sounds as if "inattentive" was the primary factor in THIS diver fatality, as opposed to inexperience. But I just don't want to skate over the fact that inexperienced divers simply should not be lobster hunting...period. And I wouldn't want an inexperienced diver to read your post and think, "Hey as long as I remain attentive, I'll do fine!"

You make an excellent point that lobster diving adds a level of task loading that drastically changes the complexity of a dive. And even the most experienced diver can be inattentive and let that throw them off.

But an inexperienced diver simply doesn't have the skills to be as attentive as they need to be, no matter how hard they try.

It was great to see a newer diver say that, after reading this thread, he's re-thought going bug hunting until he's gained more night-diving experience. I hope more novice divers will read this thread, and have that same reaction.

 

[merxlin]

I want to touch on the "experience vs. inexperience" theme that's cropping up here because I think it's obscuring what I think is a big learning lesson here.

"Inexperience" doesn't kill.

"Inattentive" kills.

So does "distracted," "careless," and probably a dozen other adjectives we could use to describe not only a dive, but specifically a lobster dive. Lobster diving/hunting is an extreme form of task loading, which means it's easy to froget to monitor things like depth/time/air.

Experienced divers get inattentive and die. Inexperienced divers get inattentive and die. It's not the level of experience that does them in, it's the inattentiveness.

Also don't lose sight of the fact that "experienced" is a relative term. I'm going to problably define it differently than someone who just finished up their OW class and that will be different from someone who's already got 100 dives under their belt, and that will be different than someone with 1000 dives.

In the "Why Divers Die" talk that I give (an offshoot of our Scuba Show presentation from the Coroner, Chamber, and myself), I've taken the D.A.N. stats for the last four years (300+ fatalities) and broken the fatalities down into (1) Bad Luck [5%], (2) Bad Health (medical) [25%], and (3) Bad Diving [70%].

Based on my analysis and the way I've assigned things after reading the case descriptions, fully 70% of the fatalities occur because of bad decision-making by the diver. Out-of-air factors in there pretty strongly.

Put another less-polite way, if we as a diving community could get smarter overnight, we could eliminate 70% of the diving deaths tomorrow.

So again, don't focus on "experience". You can certainly make the argument that an inexperienced diver might be more likely to forget to monitor critical functions than an experienced diver, but it's still the failure to pay attention that causes everything to go south.

- Ken

So we have two examples of divers who saw they were low on air, then apparently did not go to their buddies for an assist but rather went for the surface. We also have a very detailed account from a diver who despite both his computers not working continued to dive "but staying shallow" for safety.

Ken hit the nail right on the head. Bad decisions. Bad results.