Cave 1 rule changes

[lamont]

Apparently there are new cave 1 rule changes so that the clause about gaps only being allowed if they cross open water has been dropped and so gaps are simply allowed now (so the hotul gap is just legal now). And restrictions are allowed now, what is not allowed is 'restricted passages'. So if a restriction is less than 50 feet between areas where the divers can turn around it is allowed, but longer restricted passages are out. The latter rule sounded like there might be a little more to the story and that certain passages which fit the letter of the law might still not be considered prudent for a cave 1 diver to dive based on other issues (halocline, etc).

...

Question: at the paso de legarto jump in the mainline in grand cenote, the line arrows have one arrow pointing back at your direction, a tie off and the two arrows pointing the 'wrong' way. As you pass that, do you cookie in front of the tie off and behind the two 'wrong' arrows to negate them, or do you cookie in front of the whole mess and negate the whole thing? I was leading in, and I felt that I agreed completely with the first arrow so didn't drop a cookie in front of it. Then there was enough room for the team behind the two arrows pointing the wrong way so I dropped cookies there. As we came back someone had actually jumped onto the paso de legarto line by tying into the first line arrow. That made me reassess my choice of cookie placement, but it still seemed like it worked and was unambiguous. It might have been more unambiguous to drop cookies on the other side of the first line arrow, but it didn't seem 'wrong' to do it the way we did. Thoughts?

 

[rjack321]

for this where X is the tie off:
--<<-X-->--
drop your cookies like so:
--<<-X-->-O-O

You are reinforcing your exit, not "negating" arrows. This:
--<<-O-O-> regardless of the tieoff in there does not work and will screw you up down the road.

Remember its the position of the cookie relative to the arrows which counts. You don't want a cookie in the middle of a group and having to decide if 2 or 3 inches one way or the other has meaning.

From a post of mine on another board...

A) You can negate a "contrary arrow" arrow and effectively NOT mark the exit side of anything
or
B) You can always mark the exit side of something but not necessarily negate a "contrary arrow"

The previous example of NOT placing a cookie inside this triple arrow pseudo midpoint + jump...
--<-->->--

Stuff like this
--<-O-O->->--
or this
--<-O-O->->-O-O-
effectively "negates arrows" but is gibberish as far as marking an exit.

So you would mark this like so
-O-O--<-->->-- (left exit, 2 "non-negated" arrows remain)
or
--<-->->-O-O- (right exit, one "non-negated" arrow remains)


Here's another midpoint example, the negating logic would go like so...
----<--O--O------>---- exit right
vs.
exit left ----<------O--O-->----
You can see with these 2 situations that the actual relationship between the "negated arrow" and the "good arrow" is not clear. The cookies are in the same orientation relative to the good arrow as they are to the bad arrow. Just a couple of inches creates the "decision". That's bad news. The cookie should define, by its relative position, the exit side. Distance to the arrow is irrelevant. However by attempting to "negate a contrary arrow" you have created a situation where out-of-the-cave and into-the-cave are now defined by a couple of inches difference between the cookies and one arrow vs another arrow. Are you going to break out a ruler in the dark to decide which is which? Ummm no.

So the correct way to mark a midpoint is like this.
----<---------->-O-O--
Which leaves a "contrary arrow" unmarked, big whoop.

The concept that you mark "contrary arrows" is from Cave1. Once you start doing jumps, circuits and traverses you MUST adopt the logic that you are marking the exit side of an arrow, the junction, group of arrows, etc. The "negating" logic will get you in trouble because it may very well "negate" an arrow pointing the wrong way, but in a peculiar twist also not tell you which way is out.

 

[rjack321]

Thanks for the updates

 

[RTodd]

The cookie thing is good practice. But, don't get too hung up on it. Keep in mind, all we would have done in the past is drop one clothes line, if anything, on the arrow pointing in our exit direction. Honestly, we probably would have just mentally referenced it given its close proximity to both exits.

I still disagree with the everyone dropping a cookie thing other than for really new divers. Drives me nuts since I know what my teammates cookies say and I reference them when they get dropped. But, I comply with the rules since they are good reinforcement, particularly for divers newer to cave navigation.

 

[MonkSeal]

I still disagree with the everyone dropping a cookie thing other than for really new divers. Drives me nuts since I know what my teammates cookies say and I reference them when they get dropped. But, I comply with the rules since they are good reinforcement, particularly for divers newer to cave navigation.

Can you explain why you disagree with this practice? I'm totaly new to cave diving (freshly Cave-1 two months ago). We were told that one of the reasons for this practice was passing info in case of lost team member i.e. team separation. If the rest of team removed cookies, separated diver can see that they are in front of him; if all cookies are in place, he can conclude they are behind. Be so kind to comment.

 

[PfcAJ]

There really isn't a reason for all team members not to drop a cookie. It takes ZERO time, and its one more thing that stacks the odds in your favor.

 

[rjack321]

Can you explain why you disagree with this practice? I'm totaly new to cave diving (freshly Cave-1 two months ago). We were told that one of the reasons for this practice was passing info in case of lost team member i.e. team separation. If the rest of team removed cookies, separated diver can see that they are in front of him; if all cookies are in place, he can conclude they are behind. Be so kind to comment.

Both myself and other divers have looked directly at (and OKed with a light) an arrow pointing into the cave and not "gotten" that it was pointing away from our exit. I have only been able to communicate (or realize in my own case) the "wrong way" after the #2 teammate dropped the cookie reinforcing our exit. This experience has reinforced for me the value of everyone dropping a cookie. Its an unambiguious affirmation of agreement on the exit direction that can't be replicated any other way.

The seperation issue is less critical/relevant to me, at least on a day to day basis.

 

[RTodd]

If I was so badly seperated from a teammate that we were passing navigational aids and exiting, they are getting a note on the line with a cookie so the pulling cookies thing is unimportant. More realisticly, I am not diving with anyone where this has any real possibility of happening short of a major environmental issue in which case it is highly unlikely we are spending time pulling anything off the line on the exit anyway.

Like I said, I see the value to those newer to cave navigation. Once you have several hundred cave dives though, properly referencing all of this stuff should be ingrained or you should not dive. A change in directional arrows is not that big of a deal to me and while I do mark them, it is rarely that important to my navigation of the cave. Generally speaking, I will know what the two exit alternatives were and which is the best to use in an emergency or it will be a new reference to me that I will consider a mental marker for exiting, similiar to my occasinal turn to look at what turns in the direction of the cave look like from the exit perspective. Yes, adding a cookie is helpful but it is situation dependent. For instance, on a mainline that is a traverse between two cenotes where there is a change in directional markers do we regularly cookie this, no. If it was my first time to dive the site, yes.

Do I feel the need to add multiple cookies so I personally remember as opposed to relying on a teammate, no. Cookies are in individual reinforcement of the direction. It is not a bad idea at all and I think it is a great chang for newer divers. As the dives get more complext though and you are already relying on the team to perform different roles, confirming the lines and markers of the teammate performing this task is sufficient for me. Plus, each team member having to carry a dozen cookies so they can all mark every single navigation point just bothers me from an efficiency standpoint.

 

[rjack321]

Nickel Rocket

 

[RTodd]

Well played.