Cave diver drowns - Jackson Blue Springs, Florida

[lermontov]

It's just more cave politics and it silts out the discussion.

Nice analogy!

 

[bamafan]

It absolute is 100% just that, in more ways than just one.

Just look at how and why GUE was formed.
One reason being the lack of training quality at the time and the unwillingness to change by the traditional cave training agencies.

To clarify, I'm not GUE trained and looking at this from the outside, but let's just ask ourselves this, maybe @PfcAJ can chime in.

Would a proper GUE team of Cave 2 divers with less than 100 cave dives pull through with a dive like this?

Would a sidemount rebreather be the recommended tool of choice for a new GUE cave diver?

Would a sidemount rebreather be the recomnended tool to use in a passage less than 600' from the entrance?

If any of these are a hard ""no", we might want to question the de-facto "standards" that exist in the industry today.

I think the question should also be asked if the diver would have likely survived if he was on OC sidemount. There is no way to say for sure but I would bet the answer is yes. He would have definitely been less incumbered and probably less stressed.

 

[chillyinCanada]

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[lermontov]

The idea is kind of cool, but it takes away the process of discovering it by yourself.

Maybe a little warning here and there (where warranted) might make sense.
Or just pull the line in the passage this accident happened in - and all other sidemount only lines at the Mill Pond too. There are a few that come to mind

Funny how people get offended by the suggestion of putting a marker on a line and feel their cave diving intelligence is insulted, yet instead they suggest pulling the line entirely to fix the issue

I think the question should also be asked if the diver would have likely survived if he was on OC sidemount.

The issue as see i it is that people are making decisions based on others experiences - "joe said has been through it so i can " or "you'll get through OK on side mount " or "theres a line running so it must ok "

What line following does not do is tell you the calibre of people that have gone down that route or how much mental preparation they have put in before taking on such a project
Im not a fan of fixed lines, despite its convenience -it develops a form of diving consumerism that seduces others into places they shouldn't be. What one diver does with relative comfort and little stress can be terrifying for another.

whether he would have survived on OC sidemount is irrelevant, he misjudged and he got stuck -that could have happened on a sidemount on different dive in a differant restriction, it still comes down to making that judgement call based on his prior experience and mental strength.

The difference between pushing to the line and pushing past the line is sometime hard to define - i recommend watching the movie Meru

 

[berndo]

whether he would have survived on OC sidemount is irrelevant,

I disagree. Not only does the SW add bulk and snag points compared to just OC LP85s, it also adds complexity. An extra stage (which wouldn't have been needed) you can take off easily. I don't think you can take the off the cans of a SW, not without flodding the unit anyways.
There just was a thread in which people argued that ccr is safer than OC in caves. While that may be true for deep and long dives, in this case it clearly wasn't.

 

[berndo]

A rebreather opens up all sorts of caves to me, if I bring enough bail-out.

Yeah, and that's probably a bad thing. You can dive a LOT of cave and do very looong cave dives on nitrox in Florida on 104s or 120s and 2 stages. IMHO, unless people have worked they way up longer and/or deeper dives, they shouldn't use a rebreather. Especially not when you're fairly new to diving. Unfortunately, ccrs, especially units like the SW are being marketed to newish divers, it seems.
Now that xdeep has bought KISS, they will crank up the social media marketing even more once then can get their superwinder to work. (If that ever happens, we know that xdeep aren't exaxtly engineering geniuses).

 

[cerich]

I disagree. Not only does the SW add bulk and snag points compared to just OC LP85s, it also adds comlexity. An extra stage (which wouldn't have been needed) you can take off easily. I don't think you can take the off the cans of a SW, not without flodding the unit anyways.
There just was a thread in which people argued that ccr is safer than OC in caves. While that may be true for deep and long dives, in this case it clearly wasn't.

you are making it sound like a binary choice, it's not. It can make it safer or more dangerous depending on many factors and circumstances. If hung up and can stay on loop to work the problem, it's good, now you may (or may not) be hung up by the unit... anyhow, not binary or hard and fast

 

[ginti]

It absolute is 100% just that, in more ways than just one.

Just look at how and why GUE was formed.
One reason being the lack of training quality at the time and the unwillingness to change by the traditional cave training agencies.

To clarify, I'm not GUE trained and looking at this from the outside, but let's just ask ourselves this, maybe @PfcAJ can chime in.

Would a proper GUE team of Cave 2 divers with less than 100 cave dives pull through with a dive like this?

Would a sidemount rebreather be the recommended tool of choice for a new GUE cave diver?

Would a sidemount rebreather be the recomnended tool to use in a passage less than 600' from the entrance?

If any of these are a hard ""no", we might want to question the de-facto "standards" that exist in the industry today.

I could answer since I am one of those divers, but honestly, I don't think it's an agency matter...

IMHO, unless people have worked they way up longer and/or deeper dives, they shouldn't use a rebreather.

This.

Unfortunately, ccrs, especially units like the SW are being marketed to newish divers, it seems.

And this.

I don't know the situation in Florida, but at least in France and Italy, it is possible to do long dives in OC since some caves are shallow. I am especially thinking of most caves in Cala Gonone, Sardinia, but I believe some caves in the Lot are also relatively shallow (I was there only within C1 limits, and I am unsure if they continue like that for longer dives - but the plans for many of them are available on plongeesout if anyone wants to check)

 

[The Chairman]

IMHO, unless people have worked they way up longer and/or deeper dives, they shouldn't use a rebreather.

And thankfully, you're not the cave police. I know and honor my limits. I don't need others to dictate how I dive. Not all tragedies can be averted through more red tape. I've dealt with a bad back for close to 20 years now. I dive a rebreather for that and the silence. Perhaps after surgery, I'll be able to dive like a kid again. Still, the first rule of diving still applies.

 

[berndo]

I don't know the situation in Florida, but at least in France and Italy, it is possible to do long dives in OC since some caves are shallow.

In France, not really. Pretty much all the tourist caves in the Lot either drop below nitrox depth pretty early or you have to haul your stuff over into the next sump or both. There aren't really any caves where you can just swim for more than 2 hours on nitrox. At least I can't of any right now, other than Landenouse.
Flordia has a lot of cave that stays at 30 m or shallower for forever. I reckon, you could dive Florida caves for years on OC before getting bored even as a local, in France there is not as much that is easily accessible and doesn't require dry caving or trimix.

you are making it sound like a binary choice, it's not. It can make it safer or more dangerous depending on many factors and circumstances. If hung up and can stay on loop to work the problem, it's good, now you may (or may not) be hung up by the unit... anyhow, not binary or hard and fast

It seems to me that a lot of newer divers have a very nonchalant attitude towards ccr diving and it worries me.
As I said before, I'm surprised we haven't seen more ccr accidents in recent years. Maybe I'm too paranoid.