Cave Diver mishap Ginnie Springs 04SEP09

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Hello...been lurking on this thread. My only experience is diving cenotes this past July in Mexico. Which is no experience when it comes to this type of cave diving.

I have several questions from reading the thread.
1. What does it mean for the dragon to be up your back? Is it fear of losing air in time to get out?
2. What does SM tanks were islolated mean?
3. Watching the video...I noticed tanks lying about. Are those spares with air? Are they ditched tanks used up to be retrieved later?

I have to say this thread gives me chills to read. Not being a cave diver...It seems a scary endeavor, especially for the untrained and unfamiliar as myself. My heart and adrenaline pump just perusing this discussion.

Thanks in advance,
Mary
 
I have several questions from reading the thread.
1. What does it mean for the dragon to be up your back? Is it fear of losing air in time to get out?
2. What does SM tanks were islolated mean?
3. Watching the video...I noticed tanks lying about. Are those spares with air? Are they ditched tanks used up to be retrieved later?

1. Is just I think Rick's expression for what you feel when you know you are in the middle of a close call - adrenaline or otherwise.
2. Side mount tanks are technically always "isolated" in the sense of how the phrase would be used in doubles as the tanks are independent and in no way connected to each other. I think it is technically less correct to say "isolated" in regard to a side mount tank and it makes more sense to just say one of the tank valves was closed - but as long as the meaning is understood it makes no real difference.
3. If I remember correctly, the tanks in the video were deco bottles. That part of the cave is a little too close to the front to see stage bottles. Deco bottles are normally clipped on to the main line or clipped on to your primary line so that you can find it even in zero viz and also to prevent it from getting moved by any flow. That is one of those rules that also gets bent at Ginne as they are often just laying somewhere out of the flow. Another risk factor at Ginnie is the OW divers or freedivers who may stray into the eye, the ear or even into the cavern zone and take a deco bottle so that also impacts where bottles are placed versus where they'd normally be placed. Ginnie is different in some respects and that is one of them. At Little River for example, you almost always see them on the line at the stop depth or 10' below it with less variation on that theme.

I have to say this thread gives me chills to read. Not being a cave diver...It seems a scary endeavor, especially for the untrained and unfamiliar as myself. My heart and adrenaline pump just perusing this discussion.
You are 100% that cave diving is deadly for the untrained, and can be if you exceed the limits of your training or ability, or of you take it for granted as it is at the same time deceptively easy when everything goes well and extremely demanding and totally without mercy for anyone who lacks training, skill or sound judgment when things do not go well.

But there is nothing on the planet I'd rather be doing on any given day. It is extremely rewarding and with proper training, planning and prudent execution of the dive, fear is not a major player in cave diving. You are always aware of the risk that is out there but 99% of the risks are controllable and you train for the rest of them. There is (or should be) an awareness of the risks and the potential consequences of taking shortcuts, breaking the rules or making a mistake, but the presence of risk if you screw up is part of the challenge and is one of the things that makes it both interesting and rewarding.

Most cave divers, at least those that last long enough to grow old and experienced, are not risk takers, but rather risk mitigators who use planning and training to minimize the risk to very small levels to avoid the risks of any given dive.
 
Thanks DA Aquamaster,

So, are you saying DECO bottles can be "swiped" by others who ventured into wrong places? Then a cave diver is left without his Deco bottle?

As for cave diving. I cannot remember which book it was I read years ago...but it talked a lot about when people first starting exploring caves with scuba gear and Ginnie Springs was one of the main ones. Lots of lives lost trying to figure out how to go about doing it safely (back in the 60's?). Long before cave certs course, guide lines, penetration techniques, double tanks, staging and deco bottles.

Made for a bone chilling read!
 
Yes, people have been known to remove deco bottles from caves, causing the diver to come back and find he doesn't have his deco gas and must deco out on backgas (which is a much longer process, and hopefully he has the gas to do it). I always hope that the people who do this have no clue what the tank is for, and aren't just willfully taking gear and thinking, "So he gets bent, so what?"
 


A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

As the discussion about back gas & deco gas has nothing to do with this mishap, I've moved the next question into its own thread here.
 
Thanks Rick.
 
One question about the gear and the dive site. Would Bruce have had a computer, and does the dive site force enough changes in depth through the cave system that a download might provide an ability to trace his path?

There is enough difference between hill 400 and from the mailine/expressway tunnels to get a general idea of when he may have been where. (I could look at some of my previous profiles in both areas to confirm that.)

If Bruce had a computer that captures and stores that level of detail you could graph the profile in terms of depths and times, compare that with what is known/reported by the dive buddy (and his computer if he had one) and then in effect retrace the possible routes to see what likely happened. At least enough to determine if Bruce got stuck somewhere for a significant period of time and you could probably determine if he was in the Wormhole Hill 400 area earlier in the dive rather than just near the end of the dive as would be the case in a panic or looking for lost buddy scenario.

I am not sure if you could tell the difference between just going up Hill 400 and going through the worm hole other than just the longer time needed to go through the Wormhole, but I am suspect it would add some worthwhile information that could produce a hypothesis that could then be verified through field testing.
 
2. What does SM tanks were islolated mean?
Mary

One of his tanks had the tank valve closed to isolate the regulator for some reason.

Could have been a free flow or just because he had emptied it.

Typically diving manifolded doubles you would close the isolator on the manifold and/or a tank valve if there was a problem in those areas. So the term "isolate" in technical diving would mean shutting down whatever valves are necessary to stop a leak. In a typical sidemount configuration there is only one valve to close to isolate that reg/tank.
 


A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

discussion on search gas calcs moved here.
 
This will seem like a very dumb question to you experienced cave divers, but I need to ask it to understand what I'm reading here. When looking at the map of the cave system, are you looking at it from the side (like it was an ant farm) or from directly above (like a road map)? I don't see anything on the map to indicate one way or the other.



Alan, I'm so very sorry that you've lost your father and hope that you have someone to help you deal with the emotions that are coming. You appear to be a level headed young man; I hope you gain comfort from the kind words that are spoken about your father here on this board. He obviously was very well liked. I wish you all the best.
 

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