Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[cerich]

a few years ago I tried to generate some solutions to the problem, unfortunately, some (including Jim) felt it was an attack on the CDS versus an effort to leverage it.

Honestly, I see so many crappy instructors giving lip service to quality because it makes them appear to be quality while passing everybody who's check clears it isn't funny....

I always find it amusing to watch Jim attack NAUI, TDI etc while not having a go at PADI. I have seen so many crappy PADI cavern instructors, there is NO, ZERO zip evaluation process at all there, just be a PADI instr and send in that you have a cave card and the filled out application with payment method and viola, insta cavern instructor. Cavern is the gateway drug to cave and sets the expectations.

But really, it isn't even the agencies, it's simply a fidelity issue where too many instructors either can't or won't have fidelity to offering quality training.

 

[The Chairman]

2.1.7 Cavern Dives and Skills
Minimum total bottom time in the overhead required to complete this level of training is 85 minutes. The following skills will be performed and developed on each dive:
A. Safety drill (equipment check, “bubble check” and gas share prior to each dive).
B. Calculating turn around pressures and no-decompression limits.
C. Satisfactory performance of specialized propulsion techniques, demonstrating efficiency and minimum cave impact.
D. Satisfactory trim technique and buoyancy control through proper weight adjustment and distribution and buoyancy compensator operation.
E. Use of reels and guidelines in caverns.
F. Management of valves and regulators.

Except for E & F, this is the class I teach for open water with one difference: NASE requires 100 minutes of bottom time for an OW certification and you're not getting out of my class with less than 180 minutes.

I always find it amusing to watch Jim attack NAUI, TDI etc while not having a go at PADI. I have seen so many crappy PADI cavern instructors, there is NO, ZERO zip evaluation process at all there, just be a PADI instr and send in that you have a cave card and the filled out application with payment method and viola, insta cavern instructor. Cavern is the gateway drug to cave and sets the expectations.

Chris, I don't think I've ever seen a PADI Cavern class being conducted. Ever.

But really, it isn't even the agencies, it's simply a fidelity issue where too many instructors either can't or won't have fidelity to offering quality training.

It's a mixture of laziness, hubris and delusion which can be summed up as "good enuf fer who it's for" mentality.

 

[ucfdiver]

The skills required are listed in the standards; for example I am pasting the in-water skills from the NSS-CDS cavern diver course below:
2.1.7 Cavern Dives and Skills
Minimum total bottom time in the overhead required to complete this level of training is 85 minutes. The following skills will be performed and developed on each dive:
A. Safety drill (equipment check, “bubble check” and gas share prior to each dive).
B. Calculating turn around pressures and no-decompression limits.
C. Satisfactory performance of specialized propulsion techniques, demonstrating efficiency and minimum cave impact.
D. Satisfactory trim technique and buoyancy control through proper weight adjustment and distribution and buoyancy compensator operation.
E. Use of reels and guidelines in caverns.
F. Management of valves and regulators.
.

Just for comparison, let's look at the requirements from another agency

Required Dive Skills and Drills

• Demonstrate proficiency in cave navigation, to include: visual reference, guideline use, limited and simulated zero visibility.
• Demonstrate the skills needed to locate a lost line while performing a simulated lost line drill.
• Demonstrate good buoyancy and trim, i.e. approximate reference is a maximum of 20 degrees off horizontal while remaining within 3 feet/1 meter of a target depth.
• Comfortably demonstrate at least three propulsion techniques that would be appropriate in delicate and/or silty environments; one of these kicks must be the backward kick.

Do you think if the standards weren't so vague it would make it easier for instructors to realize what they consider satisfactory isn't really satisfactory?

Also I'm curious-- do you think the average student coming out of a NACD/NSS-CDS class could perform a valve drill within a +/-3 foot window? Do you think they could kick backwards to avoid having to push off a cave wall? I could not after my NACD and NSS-CDS training. Heck, IIRC you don't even have to be able to find the line in NACD/NSS-CDS standards to pass intro to cave.

 

[cerich]

Chris, I don't think I've ever seen a PADI Cavern class being conducted. Ever.

.

every weekend at the "recreational" springs and often at Peacock as well

 

[Redshift]

So why we have identified or stated rather that each agency has bad instructors (that have made it through the system somehow) What sort of things do you all feel is needed to be a good instructor and what sort of skills do you see as being required in learning to cavern through cave diving?

We need instructors who give a damn! We are here comparing standards, but we all know what a diver should and should not do. Is there any instructor who thinks it's ok to kneel on the bottom to tie a reel, as someone has witnessed? I don't think so. So why does it happen? Because instructors don't care and agencies don't care about their instructors not caring!

Just for comparison, let's look at the requirements from another agency



Do you think if the standards weren't so vague it would make it easier for instructors to realize what they consider satisfactory isn't really satisfactory?

Also I'm curious-- do you think the average student coming out of a NACD/NSS-CDS class could perform a valve drill within a +/-3 foot window? Do you think they could kick backwards to avoid having to push off a cave wall? I could not after my NACD and NSS-CDS training. Heck, IIRC you don't even have to be able to find the line in NACD/NSS-CDS standards to pass intro to cave.

Those standards are quite vague indeed. But I have to remark that you are comparing Cavern with Cave 1. Still, they don't say much about what should be done and how.

I would hope that any cave diver could perform a valve drill within such a window! +/- 1m is huge!
I don't agree on the 20º from horizontal though. What if the cave floor is inclined? And are instructors measuring it precisely? I don't see the point because in the end it's not practical. And we all know how a diver should and should not be. I think that is not the problem, the problem is instructors certifying divers who clearly are not ready. And that happens with standards precise to the degree or not. The only way to correct that is agencies being active in controlling the quality of their instructors and the courses they provide. But apparently they seem to feel better by brushing everything under the carpet.

---------- Post added March 23rd, 2015 at 01:20 AM ----------

Your opinion is of course respected. I agree there are are couple of bad apples in the NACD & NSS-CDS instructor corps. Going through the list in my mind and on the respective instructor lists I only count about five.

And yet they are still teaching, right? So we are discussing the merits of such agencies in producing good quality instructors, as opposed to some others and there are known bad apples still among them? How come?

There are bad divers because there are bad instructors (either due to lack of skills or bad attitude) because agencies do not deal with them.

 

[victorzamora]

Your opinion is of course respected. I agree there are are couple of bad apples in the NACD & NSS-CDS instructor corps. Going through the list in my mind and on the respective instructor lists I only count about five.

I believe that overall there are more than I can count from the ranks of the others.

This is not meant to be an attack vic. It is an observation and an opinion I have formed over several years of watching the degradation of cave divers ability to cave dive the way we taught it from the mid 70's when I started teaching cave diving to the present day embarrassment....

You didn't offend me at all, Jim. Seriously, I didn't mean it defensively or take it offensively. I simply meant that a longer, more thorough Instructor training isn't the obvious solution you were presenting as it still has poor instructors on the other side. I definitely think it's a gigantic leap beyond the more simple courses many are taking....it's just not the whole answer. There are certainly more in the ranks of others.

 

[rddvet]

J
Do you think if the standards weren't so vague it would make it easier for instructors to realize what they consider satisfactory isn't really satisfactory?
.

You hit it on the head. Even with guidelines available, unless they are very specific they are open for interpretation. My cavern/cave1 instructor told us exactly how many feet and how off trim we were allowed to be doing s-drills and any other task. I'm sure other instructors would have different parameters. I see so many people fanny flapping with their hands or using a finger or hand to steady themselves when they go to run a line, do a tie off or drop a stage. My instgructor was very specific that using the cave to slow or steady yourself to do a drill is absolutely not ok and propulsion techniques are the only way to steady yourself. We would have failed if we steadied ourselves with a finger at the point of tie off. While in the caves I see tons of instructors who allow their students to use a finger or change depth by 5 or more feet while doing a tieoff because I assume they're happy the student did well with the tie off. There needs to be specific objective requirements the good and the crappy instructors need to follow. That way if this ever comes up again and someone has gopro video it can be broken down all the way to its basic elements as to why this instructor produces crap students.

 

[boulderjohn]

Well, following the criterion in the PSAI manual, maybe it isn't strange that the PADI class spent so little time in the cavern. We were in Vortex springs, and there sure isn't far to go before cavern turns to cave. And, since there is no specific time requirement that I can find for bottom time in the PADI class I'm not sure there is technically an issue. Regarding drills, there is a rule in the standards that says no OOA drills can be conducted in the OH environment in PADI cavern. So, all we did was run a line in, look around, run it out, switch. Of greater concern, and a source of disappointment at the time (though mitigated somewhat by how lame the Vortex springs cavern is), I believe I had only 2 dives in the cavern. Another 3 dives in OW running line and practicing OOA drills w/without a blindfold. As there appears to be no rule about how many dives must happen IN the OH, I guess my 5 dive PADI class (4 dives min req) was above standards!

You must not have read the standards I posted carefully, and you must have ignored my commentary. Please read carefully:

1. According to standards, three dives MUST be conducted in the cavern. You said you only had two in the cavern, and you somehow think that meets the standard.

2. I said that although there are no times mentioned for the specific dives, there is a PADI standard for ALL training dives. The total time you mention for your two dives does not meet the requirement for one dive.

3. I also said that the time minimum time didn't matter, because you could not do all the required skills for those three dives in that little time. You mentioned the skills you did. If that is all you did, then you missed some stuff.

4. According to the suggested time statement I quoted, the diving portion of the class should have amounted to a number of hours, with most of that in the cavern.

Your course did not come close to meeting standards. Now, look at the content of this thread and explain why you are not planning to report that instructor.

 

[ucfdiver]

Those standards are quite vague indeed. But I have to remark that you are comparing Cavern with Cave 1. Still, they don't say much about what should be done and how.

I would hope that any cave diver could perform a valve drill within such a window! +/- 1m is huge!
I don't agree on the 20º from horizontal though. What if the cave floor is inclined? And are instructors measuring it precisely? I don't see the point because in the end it's not practical. And we all know how a diver should and should not be. I think that is not the problem, the problem is instructors certifying divers who clearly are not ready. And that happens with standards precise to the degree or not. The only way to correct that is agencies being active in controlling the quality of their instructors and the courses they provide. But apparently they seem to feel better by brushing everything under the carpet.

I think you're being generous assuming that most cave divers can actually do a valve drill, let alone +/- 3ft. I still remember hearing an instructor at Peacock say "Ideally you want to be able to control your valves if you lose gas, but if not that's why we dive 1/3rds" to a student in a drysuit struggling to reach his valves. Don't forget that 10-15 years ago slob knobs were being sold to tech divers who couldn't reach their isolator.

My experience in fundies (which has the same requirements as Cave 1 for buoyancy and trim) is that video review gives a pretty solid picture of how out of trim you are, and leaves little room for arguing. Slopes and inclines are covered in the slides and specifically called out as times to adjust your kicks and trim.

As to your other point-- you cannot control the quality of something when you don't define quality. The way the NSS-CDS standards are written, someone could kneel on the ground while placing their primary reel and as long as the instructor thinks it's satisfactory, they meet standards.

 

[boulderjohn]

As to your other point-- you cannot control the quality of something when you don't define quality. The way the NSS-CDS standards are written, someone could kneel on the ground while placing their primary reel and as long as the instructor thinks it's satisfactory, they meet standards.

I wonder how many times I will have to write this.

In performance assessment, it is very difficult to write very specific standards that clearly define acceptable performance. With some standards it is not that hard, but with others it is nearly impossible. If you look at the written performance standards for open questions on advanced placement exams, you will see wording that looks very vague and open to interpretation, yet the graders who score those exams (2 graders required for each student) will give the same score on a 9 point scale more than 90% of the time. Give them a 2 point scale (pass/fail), and it would be nearly 100%.

In assessing student performances, the assessor compares what is being seen with a mental image of what is acceptable. The key to consistent inter-rater reliability in scoring is ensuring that all assessors have the same mental image of each scoring level. That is done through training, and it takes surprisingly little time to achieve that level of scoring reliability. Trainees see repeated performances, score them themselves, and learn how the experts scored them and why. A person who has gone through a thorough training program is supposed to have seen enough models of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable that he or she will look at a new performance and be able to score it in a manner consistent with the best experts. It works.

If someone has gone through a solid training program and is scoring students far outside the norm, then it is almost certainly a calculated decision. The instructor knows it is wrong and is doing it anyway. If someone is intentionally scoring incorrectly, it does not matter what the standards say. That was my point earlier when I mentioned the instructor who certified my niece as an OW diver with only one short pool session and one shallow OW dive. That instructor obviously knew the standards did not allow that, but he was willing to violate them anyway.