CCR cave crossovers
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People frequently want to bring their rebreather to dive with us down here and I always ask for a CCR Cave card.
When I get the common enough, "I dive my rebreather in the cave all the time, I've never needed a card before," I simply ask "What is your bailout radius at an average depth of 30 feet with a set of aluminium 80s?"
The most common answer is, "Huh?"
To which I say, "That is why I want to see the card."
When I get the common enough, "I dive my rebreather in the cave all the time, I've never needed a card before," I simply ask "What is your bailout radius at an average depth of 30 feet with a set of aluminium 80s?"
The most common answer is, "Huh?"
To which I say, "That is why I want to see the card."
J-Vo
Contributor
I do have a cave CCR card, but seems to me that if you're cave training and your CCR training were not enough for you to be able to figure your cave CCR bailout, you shouldn't be doing either.
Serious question:
Do you expect clientele to have this memorized or to be able to work it out in short order? Or are you just looking for something more than a, “huh?”
I know the answer of the top of my head for diving in my own area but uncommon (to me) depths and unfamiliar cylinder volumes (for what I normally dive) are gonna take some calculating.
And if they know the answer, no card is needed?
And is the diver allowed to calculate it? Or do you react on the first 'huh? ' answer? If someone askes me, I would react also with huh? As there are factors not given to answer this question directly
I can easy calculate it, but I don't know the exact answer as let's say 800m. The reason is that the radius is depending on the gas consumption AND swimming speed.
No flow, inflow, outflow? So to answer your question, I would ask you directly some new questions to answer your question. And things like scr bailout are for you not important in a cave?
But then I don't need a card anymore with you I believe.
A CCR Cave class should be about a lot more than just calculating bailout. Unfortunately, the minimum agency standards allow the crossover to be done in just a couple of days, so many instructors do just that. "Here's how to plan your bailout radius, now let's go fun diving for a couple days".
A CCR is a tool for long-range diving, and a CCR Cave class should be tailored for that. If not, we end up with divers who have access to some pretty gnarly places without the experience to manage it when things start to go wrong, not only creating safety hazards but significant damage to the cave. The back of Ginnie has turned into a completely different place in the last couple of years since rebreathers (especially sidemount rebreathers) have become a normal configuration for inexperienced cave divers. The course should include long dives with complex failure management that require critical thinking and creative solutions to exit in the most efficient manner, taking both gas supply and decompression obligations into account. In addition to failure management, it should include a high level of precision and finesse to avoid damage to the environment. If you're taking your CCR to Mexico, you better be able to manage being task loaded in 15ft of water within a few-inch buoyancy window without moving your hands or feet. The destruction in the caves shows that many are not.
If you are considering whether a CCR cave course is "worth it", have a discussion with a few instructors to find out what they include in their training, and pick an instructor that adds real value. A 2 day crossover where you just go fun diving probably won't be, but at least you'll have the card and can answer a question about your bailout radius.
A CCR is a tool for long-range diving, and a CCR Cave class should be tailored for that. If not, we end up with divers who have access to some pretty gnarly places without the experience to manage it when things start to go wrong, not only creating safety hazards but significant damage to the cave. The back of Ginnie has turned into a completely different place in the last couple of years since rebreathers (especially sidemount rebreathers) have become a normal configuration for inexperienced cave divers. The course should include long dives with complex failure management that require critical thinking and creative solutions to exit in the most efficient manner, taking both gas supply and decompression obligations into account. In addition to failure management, it should include a high level of precision and finesse to avoid damage to the environment. If you're taking your CCR to Mexico, you better be able to manage being task loaded in 15ft of water within a few-inch buoyancy window without moving your hands or feet. The destruction in the caves shows that many are not.
If you are considering whether a CCR cave course is "worth it", have a discussion with a few instructors to find out what they include in their training, and pick an instructor that adds real value. A 2 day crossover where you just go fun diving probably won't be, but at least you'll have the card and can answer a question about your bailout radius.
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Couple factors in play.
First one is do you NEED it. If you are in Florida and you want to dive at Ginnie then you NEED it, non negotiable, they check. That was an unpopular change, but it's privately owned and it adds to their CYOA.
If you don't need it because you never intend to dive Ginnie, then the question is should you take it. Personally I don't think anyone who is genuinely ready to take a cave CCR class should actually have to take it because if you are actually ready it should be more of a demonstration of skills type class. Unfortunately very few people who think they are ready, actually are, so cave CCR has kind of become like what a Cavern/Intro class has become and it's remedial skills and unf*cking divers which jives with what @kierentec said. Those divers have no business getting into a cave with a rebreather, but they are going to do it anyway so as an instructor we have to try to do our best to make sure they're no likely to kill themselves or destroy the cave.
The math on bailout radius is no different than it is on a DPV, so if the diver is on a DPV then they should know the answer to Rogers question very quickly. My SAC is 0.65 cfm if I'm excited, 30ft is basically 2ata, and I use 70cf for an AL80 to make sure the regulators behave properly since I use Poseidons so I like to leave a 300psi buffer. I use 1cfm for bailout planning because it gives a bit of buffer so I'd give a 70min radius on a set of AL80's. That is something you shouldn't have to calculate because we are still cutting with an axe so you should be able to do at least a 1cfm rough cut off the top of your head. That should not be something you learn in a cave CCR crossover IMO because it applies to all rebreather bailout planning, but most instructors do a woefully inadequate job of teaching that....
First one is do you NEED it. If you are in Florida and you want to dive at Ginnie then you NEED it, non negotiable, they check. That was an unpopular change, but it's privately owned and it adds to their CYOA.
If you don't need it because you never intend to dive Ginnie, then the question is should you take it. Personally I don't think anyone who is genuinely ready to take a cave CCR class should actually have to take it because if you are actually ready it should be more of a demonstration of skills type class. Unfortunately very few people who think they are ready, actually are, so cave CCR has kind of become like what a Cavern/Intro class has become and it's remedial skills and unf*cking divers which jives with what @kierentec said. Those divers have no business getting into a cave with a rebreather, but they are going to do it anyway so as an instructor we have to try to do our best to make sure they're no likely to kill themselves or destroy the cave.
The math on bailout radius is no different than it is on a DPV, so if the diver is on a DPV then they should know the answer to Rogers question very quickly. My SAC is 0.65 cfm if I'm excited, 30ft is basically 2ata, and I use 70cf for an AL80 to make sure the regulators behave properly since I use Poseidons so I like to leave a 300psi buffer. I use 1cfm for bailout planning because it gives a bit of buffer so I'd give a 70min radius on a set of AL80's. That is something you shouldn't have to calculate because we are still cutting with an axe so you should be able to do at least a 1cfm rough cut off the top of your head. That should not be something you learn in a cave CCR crossover IMO because it applies to all rebreather bailout planning, but most instructors do a woefully inadequate job of teaching that....
Have you yelled at the kids to get off your lawn lately?
Nah, I prefer kids to be out getting into trouble.
I always find it interesting when people are trying to justify the value of paying for a certification when polling on scubaboard. Many of the responses might be from people who took bad class and didn't learn anything new. So I like to demonstrate how the course CAN be valuable if it's taught properly. I apologize if that makes me sound old and cranky, but the OP clearly wants to know if people think the training is worth it. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Check with prospective instructors and see if they know how to create that value for you. Or just meet the minimum standards and buy the cert card and then complain on scubaboard that it wasn't worth the money and diving rebreathers in caves is so easy that anyone can do it.
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